Anatomy of a Conspiracy

One of the problems we’re dealing with here is definitional: Of what would a “political conspiracy” consist?

Conspire (by way of ME and Lat.) – to breathe together.

So if a political conspiracy is just talking about, or jointly wanting, or planning and taking action to achieve, a shared end, then yes, there’s conspiracy aplenty. Everytime Congress meets, all 400+ of them conspire to enact particular policies. The GOP conspires to effectuate its platform. Etc.

But we can do better, Razor: here’s a possible conspiracy model that’s more specific, as has been demanded: G.B. père is a member of the Trilateral Commission and CFR (fils may be too). The TC and CFR are real organizations that do discuss (and take positions on) world events and different ways of organizing the political and social order – i.e., their members (including the Family Bush) are “breathing together” as regards foreign policy. So [substantial inference] GWB is allowing the “conspirators” of the CFR and TC to dictate, completely or substantially, U.S. foreign policy.

Okay . . . but if that’s the conspiracy, how is it much different than GWB allowing the Bush Cabinet, or the GOP Platinum Donors’ Circle, to “breathe together” with him to determine foreign policy? I would be surprised if the TC and CFR positions on certain international issues were not substantially mirrored in certain planks of the GWB foreign policy (just as GWB (and Clinton, and most others) have breathed together with, and mirrored/enacted the policies of, the Cuban exiles, and AIPAC, and other constituencies, on certain issues).

So what separates acceptable “breathing together” from unacceptable? The dictionary goes further and provides that the shared objective or agreement of the conspirators must be for “an illegal, treacherous, or evil act.” So to distinguish the bad breathing together that you see in U.S. policy from the run-of-the-mill breathing together that is inherent in pursuing shared political goals, I think you’re going to have to articulate specifically why (objectively or subjectively) the U.S. policies you cite are “illegal, treacherous, or evil” (and which would fall short of being illegal/treacherous/evil, though maybe still deplorable, e.g., the President injecting himself into the N. Ireland peace process in response to perceived Irish Americans desires).

Is it the lying and inconsistency, in itself, that renders the end evil (e.g., “boy, we better get over there right away to eliminate all those WMDs that Saddam has on the launch pad”)? Or is this simply a cynical means that does not necessarily render the end evil/treacherous/illegal? Are we talking procedure or substance?

It strikes me that unless you can explain the “evilness” of the ends that are being collaborated on (we’ll stipulate some degree of collaboration), and/or propose a formula by which evilness of the ends can be presumptively established by some particular combination or level of

(a) collaboration;
(b) secrecy;
© identity of those breathing together;
(d) nature of the end,

then we’re back at the truism that certain people share certain aims that they try to enact through the political system, using methods that are not always the most straightforward or admirable.

Razorsharp, I’ve got a GD thread going right now – “What exactly is this ‘New World Order’? And why is anybody against it?” I’m surprised you haven’t poked your nose in yet, since this is obviously a topic of interest to you. Here, I’ll copy the entire OP:

What exactly is this “New World Order”? And why is anybody against it?
When George H.W. Bush proclaimed a “New World Order” in 1990 (1989?), he meant, clearly enough, that with the end of the Cold War and the Communist Bloc, henceforth Western Civilization led by the United States would be calling the shots.

Well, as the late Iraq War showed, it hasn’t quite worked out that way. Except for the British, the Europeans declined to follow our lead, as did practically everybody else. So it goes.

Yet the phrase “New World Order” still pops up now and then – almost always being used to represent something the writer fiercely opposes. In some right-wing publications I’ve seen, the phrase is used often enough that it is acceptable to abbreviate it “NWO”; everybody knows what it means.

But what does it mean? It seems to be identified with any international organization – the U.N., the EU, the World Trade Organization, the World Bank, the G-8 – but underlying that is always vague fear of “world government.” Either these organizations are tending towards the formation of a world government – or they already are a world government and most people haven’t figured that out yet.

I don’t understand. What’s wrong with world government, anyway? Peace, order, no more wars . . . Why would anybody be against that, or afraid of it?

And why does anyone think world government is something we’ve got, or are about to get? The U.N. is a club, not a government. The EU is an international government but it’s limited to Europe. The World Bank and WTO are, I grant you, agencies by which the established interests of international capitalism call a lot of the shots in this world – so if you’re opposed to the NWO, is that because you’re an anti-capitalist? A communist, perhaps? I doubt that. In any case, it’s obvious that even in this new integrated, regulated global economy, national sovereignty still counts for a lot, and that doesn’t appear likely to change.

Can anyone clear this up for me? What is the “New World Order”? And why is anybody against it?
And now I direct the same question to you. What is the “New World Order,” in your view, and why are you against it?

And another question – is the Bush Administration a tool of the NWO, or our last defense against it? The latter would seem more plausible since Bush has shown himself dismissive, even contemptuous, of the UN, the EU, and international organizations generally. But you seem to imply that Bush is part of the NWO, since he took us to war in Iraq. So is Bush being very deceptive, pretending to oppose the things he actually supports? Or is Bush fighting for a “New World Order” that means, not international government, but American military world-hegemony? If the latter, are you for it or against it?

Razor, your most recent post gives a little more detail about who the conspirators are, though not necessarily about how we can definitively distinguish their treacherous/evil/illegal ends from merely undesirable ones. Though I’d caution that your view of a myriad of ad hoc conspiracies sort of sounds like . . . a bunch of independently-made political preferences being enacted with no linkage.

Would that be:
Out of your mind?
Out of the debate?
Out of the “New World Order”?
Out of the “New World Communisim”?

Ah, now your true colors are begining to show.

Lying to achieve one’s end. A classic example of conspiracy.

No, I read quite a bit, but, unlike you, I don’t swallow every bit of pabulum that oozes out of the telescreen.

I’ll tell ya what ignorance is, ignorance is being brainwashed and thinking otherwise. The media has actually engaged in bainwashing the public with matters regarding race-relations. Mention the term “hate-crime” to the average individual, and he or she will automatically envision a minority persecuted by a white. But FBI crime statistics reveal that “minorities” are several times more likely to perpetrate a “hate-crime” against a white. So, don’t say that the establishment media reports “every” outbreak of violence urged by Mugabe. As a matter of CYA, they do report some, but much of that is sanitized by the omission of the gory details.

The only thing that has been established is your willingness to lap up every bit of pabulum that conveniently fits in with your Alice through the Looking Glass worldview.

Out of your league.

Razorsharp, lying to achieve your ends does NOT constitute conspiracy. Working towards hidden ends that are different from your stated ends does not constitute conspiracy. In the law, conspiracy is what happens when two or more people cooperate to plan or commit a crime; the conspiracy can be prosecuted as a separate count, independent of the underlying crime. In politics, I suppose, the definition would have to be rather broader as political conspiracies might aim at ends which are not, strictly speaking, illegal. But it would not as broad as you are making it out to be. You seem to think it is a “conspiracy” whenever our leaders fail to tell us the whole truth about what they are doing and why they want to do it. I wish they would tell us the whole truth, but failure to do so is not “conspiracy,” it’s just the sleazier side of politics-as-usual.

OK. Let me get this straight.

Mugabe incites riots against white farmers in order to placate the landless people he has impoverished with his bad economic decision.
The news media reports that such attacks have ocurred and that Mugabe is responsible.
You falsely declare that the news media has not reported it.
You then declare that I am “lapping up” “pablum” because the news media that you lied about actually reported what you pretended they did not.

That is certainly an effective argument.

And I am still very interested in your opinion on the concentration camps, razor, if you have one! :slight_smile:

Concentration camps in America.

I would be interested to know what percentage of straight dope posters are infact SHAPE-SHIFTING ILLUMINATI LIZARDS.

Guilty as charged, MC. Btw I am also the little guy that REALLY wrote all those X-Files episodes, none other than the dark lord himself.

Well, no, not necessarily, but "Working towards hidden ends that are different from your stated ends " would seem to qualify.

So, would my example of “Citizenship USA” meet the qualifications of conspiracy?

Oh, and another thing with regards to life under the yoke of the “New World Order”.

The American ideals of individual freedom and liberty will be discarded for the interests of the collective.

Hey, now I realize why so much vehemence is expended against any warnings of the impending “New world Order”.

It will be a liberal’s paradise.

I am very interested in your ideas, can you please tell me how to suscribe to your conspiracy newsletter. Please note, I can only pay in old Israeli shekels.

And, as for “concentration camps”, I can easily imagine a political force coming into power that would have no qualms about locking away dissidents.

Afterall, it will be in the interests of the collective.

It’s good we finally have a Bircher on board to bring these… insights. Still, I am very interested in your ideas, and wish to subscribe to your newsletter. Please tell me how I may remit.

Is the United States of America not a collective? Where is the difference between a quarter billion individuals acquiring the “yoke” of a nation state and 6 billion voting for a World Government?

Incidentally, Razorsharp, what do you think of this former BBC sports presenter?

If Al Gore started this “Citizenship USA” program with the ostensible purpose of eliminating a “backlog” of aliens applying for citizenship, and if this had the predictable effect of “changing the political demographics of certain congressional districts,” and if that was Gore’s main purpose in pushing the program, then no, that would not constitute a conspiracy on Gore’s part. Nothing close to a conspiracy. Any political program or policy might serve more than one set of ends, and everybody knows it. Touting only the most publicly acceptable aspect is perfectly legitimate tactics.

Not me; heaven knows, if I could shape-shift, I’d pick a better shape than this. :wink: