In a feeble effort to do something about Robert Mugabe’s genocidal government in Zimbabwe, the EU had adopted travel restrictions on Zimbabwean government officials. But EU officials won’t even enforce their own pathetically trivial sanctions. Yesterday, European Union foreign ministers moved a meeting from Denmark to Mozambique to accommodate Stanley Mudenge, the Zimbabwean foreign minister. Mudenge would not be allowed to enter EU territory under the sanctions.
Thanks a lot ministers! You solved your problem, which was getting African attendees at your meeting. Without them, you wouldn’t have an excuse to use tax money to stay at lavish hotels and eat at gourmet restaurants. Your own executive travel is more important to you than the deaths of thousands of innocent men, women and children.
This article also mentions that there have been repeated sightings of Zimbabwe ministers and officials in Europe even though they are on the visa blacklist. Last month, it emerged that the trade minister, Samuel Mumbengegwi, was allowed to stay for a week at a smart hotel in the Brussels shopping district. It’s certainly nice for Mr. Mumbengegwi and other Zimbabwean officials that they can afford luxury tours of Europe while many of they countrymen and starving. This is just moer evidence that the EU isn’t comitted to their own sanction policy.
And, this is the same European Union which lectures the US and Israel on moral matters. :smack:
december:And, this is the same European Union which lectures the US and Israel on moral matters.
Well, given that the “harsh criticism” and “outrage” described in your linked article were mostly coming from the European Parliament itself—whose deliberate attempts to keep the Zimbabweans out had been thwarted by the EU foreign ministers’ venue change—I take it you are still cool with the Parliament’s criticizing the US and Israel, right?
Well, yes and no. Sure that harsh criticism is fine as far as it goes, but it’s just words. Genocide is still taking place inside Zimbabwe, and the EU is taking no effective action to end it.
Repeating the OP: In the first place, thousands of people are dying. Secondly, the EU sanction is a joke. Does anyone expect Mugabe to step down if his minister can’t attend some EU meetings? Finally, some EU leaders undermining their own feckless policy. That’s adding insult to injury.
It isn’t much of a moral offset that a number of EU people are outraged at that final insult. Why don’t they go beyond outrage and prevent thier policy from being undermined? More importantly, why have they adopted a feckless policy that will not fix the problem?
TwistofFate. Crusoe, Sparc, jjimm – your posts make you sound like moral pygmies. The EU is making fools of themselves in the face of real tragedy, but you don’t have a word to say against them. You seem to think that internal complaints by other EU folks makes it all OK. Haven’t you noticed that EU bickering isn’t helping needy African people?
jjimm, you mentioned Sionnach. Take a look in the mirror. Thousands and thousands of black people are being intentionally starved to death, and your post makes it appear that you don’t care.
You see the problem is that nobody in this thread believes you anymore december.
You may be honestly concerned with what happens in Zimbabwe but you’ve shown yourself to be a person who will use any means to get your agenda across. Is this about the EU policies re:Zimbabwe or is it just about the EU?
Talk about the policies of EU all you want, give links from the torygraph all you want but a lot of people here now just see your name and think here we go again.
You want your threads to be taken seriously? Try being honest every now and then it may help.
Oh and BTW search for jjimm and Zimbabwe in GD to find out his actual opinion on the subject. It seems to me that all he’s doing in this thread is addressing you and not the topic of your OP.
All above is IMO BTW
I agree with your disapproval of the lack of boycott on Zimbabwean officials. I also heartily applauded the actions of Peter Tatchell last year when he tried to arrest Mugabe in Brussels.
My objection is to this:
Which is nonsense. Some EU officials are ignoring it and should be reprimanded. It’s not policy.
An honest question. What would you like to see the EU do about it? And also, what would you like to see the US do about it?
as corolloraries to those, what is the EU doing about it now, and what is the US doing about it now?
One further extention: What exactly can a legislative body like the EU do to pghysically stop Mugabwe?
How fucking dare you accuse me of being a moral pygmy. How can you see the my criticism of your misrepresentation of events as implicit indifference to what is happening in Zimbabwe?
Do you have a special screen on your monitor that converts words into decemberese doublespeak? where does jjimm even imply that he dosen’t care about Zimbabwe?
Are you using John Pertwee or Ray Bolger as your strawman model?
That’s an interesting point. One could argue that formal actions taken by EU ministers regarding where they hold their meetings does constitute policy.
TwistofFate – I would like to see the US and EU somehow change the leadership in Zimbabwe. I do not know enough to say what means they ought to use. Past international efforts to deal with some country’s internal problems have often been unsuccessful. IMHO the world community needs a new framework for dealing with truly dreadful regimes. We are too interconnected to be able to ignore this sort of problem.
An alternative might be to try to use sanctions to force Mugabe to govern adequately. I doubt that this is possible.
Incidentally, I didn’t mean to accuse you of being a moral pygmy; I said your post made you sound like one.
[bYojimbo**, you call my source a torygraph. This raises the interesting point that in general conservatives are more concernced about the tragedy in Zimbabwe than liberals are. In fact, poster janl :eek: expressed more concern about Zimbabwean people than any other poster on this message board. Why aren’t liberals more focused on the horrible situation in Zimbabwe?
Maybe the Liberal/Conservative split on Zimbabwe is evident in the US although it would surprise me if it did but in Europe I don’t see that.
The real issue is getting any African news in the print/tv news.
I think on the Zimbabwe issue I agree with what you’ve said so far and on the EU well it’s got a lot of problems, inconsistencies, huge bureaucracy and lots of vested interests but I still don’t see it with your eyes.
I can’t think of anyone I’ve met over here who is in favour of Mugabe’s regime (or Saddam’s while we’re at it).
The split would lie with how it should be dealt with.
One problem to consider is that, surprisingly, Mugabe has the support of several other African nations. A policy of total sanctions and ostracisation could inflame them too against the West and the IMF. A military intervention could spread badly against all westerners and their interests in the continent Africa. God knows, we’re unpopular enough as it is.
Then why continually criticise an organisation that is trying to do something about it (albeit one who’s bark is worse than its bite)?
Yojimbo’s use of the work “Torygraph” is is relevant because the Daily Telegraph loves to trumpet the European Union’s faults without providing any solution opf their own. I’m even surprised to see them say the the European parlament criticised the foreign minister summit. Usually they would just stick with their own indignation.
Yeah, right! More utterly fucking off the point and oblivious to the actual intent of commentary it doesn’t damned well get does it?
It’s been said, but I’ll repeat it for emphasis. I think your pissing on the wrong fire post Mr. Jingle Bells. Pro Primo the attacked group, including myself, aren’t exactly known to argue against morality or support what is generally viewed as the immoral stand, quite the contrary. Pro secundo no-one said anything about thinking that the Zimbabwe government does not deserve to be pressured through sanctions, or that the people would not deserve a regime change, or did we? Post your petty jibe some of the wrongfully accused have even sided with you on that one.
Let me in show you what is wrong with this thread, or rather your OP and continued contribution through your own words (emphasis and de-emphasis mine throughout):
So the sanctions where pathetic and feeble anyway, and then ignored. What are you trying to say here? That the EU actually supports Mugabe, or that the EU is a corrupt cesspool of self-interested politicos?
OK, so wait… the US supports Israel (as if the EU doesn’t) and then there is the moral issue… hmmm…. The EU, or some elements within the same, has expressed concern regarding the ethics and morality of parts of Israeli policy and the US support for the same… hmmm…. and now this thing with Zimbabwe… hmmm… that’s a statement that looks pretty much like saying; “In reality the EU supports Mugabe (just like they support Arafat), but they play games to make us think that they oppose oppression. Damned pro-Mugabe and anti-Israeli bastids those Europeans!”
Further; what the steaming fucking hell that is the land of Gog and Magog does this whole issue have to do with Israel??? Oh! I forgot… in X-mass season land it’s all about Israel - isn’t it? It’s always about Israel and how in reality we (the Europeans) oppose everything Israeli, or was that Jewish? I forget.
Where was the US in your OP rant?
Oh I forgot!
This wasn’t actually about Zimbabwe until someone reminded you that this latest means to slam the EU and curveball in a little jab about lack of support for Israel would need some kind of commentary as to the weapon you wield in that effort.
As I have said so many times: choose your words better old chap, or own up to your real agenda.
All that being said I agree that the situation in Zimbabwe is terrible and needs amends, but how? Like yojimbo points out, not that many people’s interest-meter hits the red and hot when anything African is mentioned…
Another thing worth mentioning for the sake of balance is the possibility that the foreign ministers of the EU felt that isolating Zimbabwe from such a summit would be counter-productive to the pressure that they are bringing to sway the country. Not saying that’s the way it is, just mentioning the possibility.
