I’ve also heard that archaeologists believe that the Egyptians, and other Mediterranean peoples were extremely poor sailors, and didn’t leave sight of land.
Was there an ancient network of intercontinental trade? Are these tiny bits of evidence the results of something else?
While I can’t speak to the Egyptian artifacts, I do know about trade in other areas. There is plenty of evidence that shows there was trade between the Maya world in Central America and various parts of North and South America.
Also, there is confirmed evidence of obsidian being traded over many thousands of miles in the Pacific about 6,500bp.
Ancient people were better at many things than people give them credit for. However, even if there is examples of contact, that doesn’t need imply that there was established trade.
Of course it’s evidence of something else entirely. Obviously the Grey Aliens kidnapped even ancient Egyptians in the years before they allied themselves with the Illuminati in the insidious plot to bring about the New World Order by destablizing the US to the point FEMA can suspend civil liberties and declare martial law.
Thanks, adam. What do you think about the possibility of trans-Atlantic trade during that time period.
BigJoe: I guess I left myself wide open for that one with the open-ended question I posted.
Let me clarify: I do not believe in ancient astronauts, alien visitation, mystic teleportation, ley lines and such. I was thinking more along the lines of: was the cocaine introduced into these mummies by recent exposure, were the tests mistaken, do Eygptian hieroglyphs contain very common symbols so the Australians could have carved them independently, that sort of thing…
Interesting topics, but…Are you implying that some else might be aliens or something? Don’t think so.
Why things travel the path they do is pretty much idiosyncratic. Some twelve years ago, I found Michael Jackson Tshirts out in the middle of nowhereland bush in Africa. Several years later and the Tshirt of the moment was the Chicago Bulls. The Tees probably didn’t sell well in the US and so they were dumped in Africa. It probably took less than a year for folks to figure out that selling Chicago Bull T shirts in the US would go only so far.
Egyptian artifacts had some 2,000 years of going from here to there via missionairies, colonials and folks just interested in Egyptian artifacts. Some of the odd stuff that I have found in Africa: A Delorean car in Conakry, Guinea that was originally found in a village in Burkina Fasso, a beautiful antique Russian samovar, antique English hardwood furniture, a veggie-matic. How did they ever get to where I found them? Where will my junk [pygmy baskets, African trade beads, cow castration tool etc] end up? I think it would be neat, but totally impossible, to trace how material goods get from point A to point X - sort of six degrees of separation of stuff.
I think the point is that ancient civilizations weren’t as insular as we once thought. If the Greeks and the Egyptians had a booming trade (not to mention a few Greek royals ruling Egypt), why not others? Languages can be learned, pidgins and creoles (A pidgin is only for one generation. Once it gets passed on, it becomes a creole.) can be created for trade purposes, etc. I’d be surprised if the Polynesians, with their amazing sailing skills, didn’t find South America well before the Vikings stumbled across Vinland. And if the Pacific can be crossed, perhaps the African Songhai Empire hit the east coast of South America, again before the Europeans. Or perhaps some Europeans hit Mesoamerica in prehistoric times, sparking myths about light-skinned gods coming from across the oceans (the very myths Cortez used to his advantage). Anyway, my point is, humans are by nature migratory animals. It didn’t take long after the stagnation of the Middle Ages ended for Europeans to ‘discover’ the world. Perhaps the rest of the world was just wondering when we’d come back.
peaches, the point of the OP is that the source of cocaine is (or, prior to the 20th century, was) limited to the Americas. How does a 3,000 year old Egyptian corpse wind up with traces of cocaine within its hair (meaning the person had to have consumed the substance) when there is no record of there having been trans-Atlantic trade 3,000 years ago?
One possibility is that there was unrecorded trade across the Atlantic. Another possibility (not much enjoyed be people who want to find greater cross-cultural interactions) is that the specific tests are finding alkyloids or similar chemicals that match current cocaine and tobacco traces, but that are actually the residue of similar-but-different Old World substances. The latter explanation was put forth in early 1997, but I have not found a copy on the web, yet.
On the following site is a cautionary letter regarding the possibilities of misinterpretations of the data (you have to scroll down to see it). British Archaeology No. 19
I remember reading several other cautions when this was first reported in 1996, but I have not found them in a quick search.
Depends on the amount. I’ve seen it stated that 99% + of all paper currency bills in current circulation more than a month or two and passing through 2-3 owners have detectable traces of cocaine on them mainly gotten from being proximate to other bills with cocaine on them.
Given the incredibly minute amounts that current tests can detect and the fact that cocaine (as we know it) has been around for over 100 years now and that academics/grad students/white collar professionals/lab workers in contact with thse mummies and doing said “tests” might possibly (y’think) be using cocaine recreationally I would surmise that detectable contamination is not too surprising.
Even the link you cite suggests this as an explanation.
As for finding Egyptian artifacts elsewhere hasn’t there been grave robbers around since they started planting royals in tombs ? Considering the Vikings were popping across the Atlantic and interacting some with the locals not long after they plundered much of the European coastal areas you never know what could happen. As an aside PBS’s show on the Vikings and their tribulations on Vinland and Greenland had some interesting things to say about the church possibly discouraging interaction with the natives so I’m not sure how much trade there was between them.
Ancient Roman coins have been found in Southeast Asia. The depth that they were excavated from indicates that they were roughly contemporary with the Emperors depicted on the coins.
Jade Buddhas have been found Viking burial mounds.
Samuel Eliot Morison, who is a minor deity for things historical and nautical, dismisses any pre-Viking European expeditions to the New World with almost David B.-like fervor. This took me aback since I always liked the thought Carthaginian/Punic-Iberian expeditions to the Americas during the time Carthage had closed the Straits of Gibralter
(pre-202 BC). It would solve a lot of pre-Columbian puzzles.
Of more or less historical fact are the voyages of the Carthaginian captain Himilco to the “Tin Isles” around 450 BC; the three year, Pharaoh Necho (610-594 BC) commissioned, circum-Africa navigation by Phoenician sailors; and a 60 ship Carthaginian expedition around 500-480 BC reported by Herodotus which probably reached at least as far as Cape Verde.
However, you pretty much need a partially decked ship and good bailers or a fully decked ship to consistently weather Atlantic storms. The Scandinavian knarrs and their Medieval descendants, cogs and caravels, evolved in that environment.
So, although I have disparagingly stated it in the past, possibly the Nina, Pinta, and Santa Maria were the 15th century equivalent of the Saturn 5. According to Admiral Sam, any earlier voyages were lucky, one way trips.
I understood the thread to be on ancient intercontinental trade and not just cocaine. Derleth summarized it well “ancient civilizations weren’t as insular as we once thought”. I agree with that. I was also interested in how unusual goods find themselves in unusual places - probably less surprising as airtravel, internet etc make the world a smaller, more interdependent place. I let my mind meander over interesting posts. Another meandering thought flashed thru: if there is a demand for a certain product [DeLorean cars, visine, Coke and coke], there will always be a supplier. Oh dear, another thought: has anyone quantified the impact of the internet and airtravel on the current global economic boom? I am not an economist, but I am sure someone has done that.
The Carthaginians and the Phoenecians weren’t Europeans. And everybody knows (or at least, everybody Irish) that the first European to reach the Americas wasn’t a Viking, but St. Brendon the Navigator. The legend has it that he crossed in a coracle (hide boat) with some of his monks, and returned with maps. The journey could be made in a coracle, but it would admittedly take rather a bit of luck (call it a miracle if you like. He is, after all, a saint). I’d always heard that the maps he returned are still extant, and fairly accurate, but that may well be a UL.
mipsman: “Samuel Eliot Morison, who is a minor deity for things historical and nautical” What’s this MINOR stuff? I’m pretty sure he walked on water while writing the history of the US Navy in WWII and his Oxford History of the US is still abvoe the beyond.
I figured the mummy was used as a vessel to smuggle the (modern) cocaine. Most customs agents would rather not look too closely at a corpse, fresh or not. Since “cocaine” is a modern product, we would need to assume that the hair had once been plaited with coca leaves. Stale ones, since they would not have traveled well. But they would have survived on the mummy.
That is assuming that the coke was superficial. If it were found inside the hairs themselves, that’s a different story. Coca steeped in, say, wine would keep much better.
While I am sick of the ancient astronauts theory, which assumes that our ancestors were complete idiots, I think that any trans-atlantic trade before the Vikings is unlikely. Accidental one-way trips, yes. The occasional, extremely lucky, round trip visit, maybe. But trade requires far more organization and huge investments of money, goods, and personnel. And we would have much more evidence of that than some coked-up mummies.
In no way do I imagine this settles the question, but,…
It is widely recognized that exposures to European germs did in huge numbers of American Indians after the exposure circa 1492. (“In fourteen hundred and ninety two, Columbus brought the Big Code Blue…”) SO if there were previous contacts,(trade, religious or accidental,) wouldn’t they have already been exposed to such pathogens, and therefore would not have been nearly so vulnerable?
Be cool if some archeologist discovers proof positive that Cherokees and Choctaw sailed to Europe to capture slaves! Wouldn’t that set the proverbial cat amongst the academic chickens?
We used to have a couple of good people for Egyptian questions on this board but I guess they must have flown the coop. Email me if you want to bring this to another board with a real live Egyptian prof on board. (The fake dead ones are clueless.)
