Thanks, Dangerosa! I remember now, I did read the one by Marilyn French years ago.
I’ve read, and liked, several by Piercy. The ones I particularly remember are “Braided Lives” and “Woman on the
Edge of Time,” which was quite science fictional.
Apologies for hijacking.
Although after reading your entire post I do accept, and agree with, the premise that we must reserve judgment, I’d also like to mention the possible existence of those who both have gut feelings yet do believe that those gut feelings are pointless.
Because I lack information and I have already had an emotional reaction to this case, I am glad that it is the justice system deciding and not my own gut feelings. In that sense, my gut feelings are pointless because they will not decide anything.
As an aside, I will add to the mix by mentioning my gut feelings. I feel that Mr. Yates did the absolute best he could given the circumstances and that far from being vilified, he should be held up as an example of a devoted spouse and father. His job provided financial support for the family. With what is likely in part due to his financial and emotional support, Mrs. Yates was under the care of a mental health professional. After working an 8-9 hour day, he went out often and played basketball with the kids. When it looked like more needed to be done in addition to mental health assistance, they had one of their parents (I’m sorry, I do not remember which) come to town and assist Mrs. Yates with the children. I’d dare to say that not all, and perhaps few, husbands/fathers would do so much to help their spouses and children under similar circumstances. (I will grant that the circumstances were not the best, and yes, having a fifth child under the circumstances may not have been a good idea.) We can say that he should have done more, but truthfully, who expects their spouse to kill their children?
all I know is:
5 kids are dead.
She might as well be (either she’ll be locked up in a mental institution or she’ll get the ‘chair’, being as this is Texas)
His life is ruined. In the span of an hour he lost his family. He wont ever be able to go on with his life unles he relocates to Europe…because you just know for years to come, we’ll hear about him via newscasts of the “3 years ago today…”
and whether she was at fault, or he, or they,
sadly, those kids are not coming back.
Its just a sad situation.
I personally am convinced that post-partum depression played a huge part in this. I also think that taking her off the Haldol was a REALLY bad idea, considering her history. If she’s got a history of severe post-partum depression, why even think of taking her off the meds so soon after the birth of the last child? IANADoctor, but I am a depressive. Common sense would tell me to leave her on the meds (and tweak the levels or change them if necessary) until she is truly out of danger. And if that’s never, well then, that’s never.
Havaing that many kids is not something I would do. But it sounds like something they wanted to do, based on their own personal beliefs. I can’t begrudge them that. And I’d also be willing to bet that she put on enough of a “game face” for her husband that he may well not have known that anything was really wrong. Now that I think about it, I do suppose it’s possible that she may have snowed her doctor as well.
I just hope that this will be a wake-up call to doctors, and parents as well. Yes, post-partum depression is really common, and most women who have given birth suffer from it to some degree. But some women don’t just “snap out of it,” as some people would like to believe. I’d also venture to guess that her depression started before the birth of the fourth child–possibly after the birth of the first. But she didn’t allow her body time enough to heal itself before continuing on with the kids. The constant hormonal shifts just made it all that much worse.
What some posters on this board are saying is that no matter what a woman does, it’s some man’s fault, IMO
I am very saddened by this case but I also have trouble with my “gut” reaction to this father. I was involved with a tragedy and because I live in a small town the media were right on it.(not a murder) When you go into shock you are not in control of yourself, I know that for a FACT. I cried for over a year from my loss, not all day long, but atleast once a day. I would go off by myself because others can’t handle extended grief exhibited by someone. They go on with their lives. A part of me will always grieve for my loved one but the attempt has to be made for those that are left living, they deserve a part of you too. Your argument about this man not getting emotional on camera doesn’t hold water. He had a simple opportunity to say “no”. They ask, you answer. He answered “yes”. I didn’t lose my whole family, but in a matter of minutes, I lost a large part of my heart. I could never have spoken like he did, what happened was not for public fodder, it would have been like trying to gain attention to myself through a tragic situation. If Mr. Yates believed in keeping emotional expressions out of the public eye, he would have not given them access. He said “yes”. I feel that I have every right to question this, and now I’m verbalizing it to you. It disturbs me when I see people under such control when a horrible event has just happened to them personally. His wife couldn’t handle her beautiful children, a lovely home, an extended family who supported her, but he can so smoothly handle the loss? When someone “acts” so together under such tragic circumstances, it makes them seem not so tragic. I’m not saying he’s complicit in this, but I do think it bolsters the argument that he might not be a person that is truly in touch in an emotional way. That probably wasn’t a good thing, considering the wife that he chose. She, obviously, needed a lot of caring and understanding and his personality probably didn’t go in that direction. He should have kept this personal and not tried to involve the whole country. Now he will never be able to grieve alone. If he would even think of doing so.
I dont think any of us realize quite how incomprehensible it would be to get that call from your SO, shakily telling you that something horrible has occured… and then to come home to a house full of police, an insane wife in handcuffs and all of your children dead. Every dream that man had for his little angels ended all in one split moment for him. Can you imagine? From birth you build these elaborate dreams of what your child will do in life. What it will be like to watch them graduate… so see them walk for the first time… to teach them to drive… to watch marry and have children of their own… to hit that homerun in Little League. So many dreams that all came to a screeching halt at the hands of the one person he swore to love until death do them part. At the hands of the person who helped create the dreams they’ve just destroyed.
I’ve seen my share of tragedy and wept my part for the loss of loved ones… But I doubt I’d have a “typical” response for someone who’s just lost their entire family.
It may take this man years before he internalizes the fact that he will never see his childrens beautiful smiles again. How sane would you be… really?
As if this man hasnt suffered enough… jesus.
And I’m sure if he took a moment to pull himself out of a quiet shock, he would be instantly crushed under the weight of his own guilt for ever leaving the house that day. This guilt is irrational, if you ask me… The man was doing his best to provide for 7 people. SEVEN!! Right or wrong to bear this many children, they did… and they were dealing with what they had. This man shouldn’t be held accountable for his wife. That you continually hold her as his victim, you are giving credence to the idea that she was just a feeble minded woman who relied on her husband as a retarded child might rely on their parent or nurse.
If she didnt feel she could care for the children, it was her RESPONSIBILITY as an ADULT to fucking stand up and say “I cant do this.” That she didnt do that makes her as guilty as actually commiting the murders. It was no ones place but her own to see to it that she was cared for.
I guarantee you that no one expected this manner of atrocity at the hands of the woman who bore and raised her five children. It’s ludicrous that you would even assume that someone should’ve been watching her every move. There are plenty of people dealing with depression that are loving, careful parents who would never harm their children.
I mean… he even arranged for his mother to come help with the children during the day… she took advantage of a ONE HOUR WINDOW OF TIME to end 5 childrens lives.
One hour.
Thats alot of work to do in one hour. You’d almost have to plan this sort of thing ahead of time.
My thoughts and prayers are with Mr. Yates and his mother right now, both no doubtedly blaming themselves for not being there late/early enough more than any of you could possibly fathom.
All together now, in chorus:
She was fully depressive, then psychotic. She was incapable of making effective decisions about her own welfare.
I think people are setting up a false dichotomy here: either is was the mother’s fault or it was the father’s fault, and that proving one innocent = proving the other guilty.
I don’t think we have enough information to say anything about this case in anyway, but it is certainly possible that this was noone’s fault. Tragedies happen.
It’s also possible that both may be at fault. Even if it turns out that her mental illness left her capable of being held responsible, what could he have been thinking to want more children (even though apparently she didn’t,according to his eulogy)to be cared for full-time by a woman who attempted suicide twice and was taking Haldol because of a post-partum mental illness. If the doctors didn’t impress upon him that this was a terrible idea, then they have some responsibility too.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by doreen *
**
Compassion for everyone involved may be the best reaction. If I blame anyone, I blame the mental health system which makes it impossible for people to be hospitalized for a reasonable length of time. And a healthcare system which makes it impossible to get home healthcare or assistance for people who are too unwell to take care of the children.
A friend of mine is of the interesting opinion that Mr. Yates has been emotionally disconnected from his family for a very long time before this ever happened, and that is why he appears so collected in the face of this insanity.
Interesting theory, I thought.
stoid
Since I doubt that any of us have walked a mile in similar shoes as of those of either the wife or husband (killed or to have been informed by our spouse of such), it is really difficult for any of us to pass judgment.