By him and Jim Steinman?!?!? :eek:
Or is the proper snarky rejoinder, “Everybody else did.”
Nobody quoted Rowan Atkinson!
“ALW’s latest rendition of Puccini’s greatest hits.”
Where does Tim Rice fit into all this? Or is he strictly a lyricist?
I wanted to come in here and rant about peoples treatment & regard of ALW in the last few years. However I’ve decided I can’t be bothered because the post would proably behave been broken down and disputed by many of you and I can’t be bothered dealing with that.
However in saying that, I will say that some of you are being really offensive. If a person wants to appreciate the works of ALW who are any of you to berate them for it? Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the people who go see Phantom 20 times do so because they like the experience of sitting in the theatre surrounded by other admirers of the work? Or that perhaps, even if you find it strange, they actually like the music and like to hear it performed well? Sure they could read the story, but is the story going to make them hear the music? And as for the old lady in the shop who cant wait to see Phantom, good luck to her! She is certainly not the only one. She too could have read the book to get the story, but maybe shes another one who shock horror actually likes the music, and knows that a movie will give a more definate storyline then the musical did?
And his music appeals to mass audiences because its simple? That kind of implies that the mass audiences know shit about music… Hmm I wonder how it is that I’ve liked Phantom for years and still ended up an honours music student? Odd that.
Why does everything have to be complicated in order to be good? Or have to be different in order to be considered great?
Sure ALW may not be as good as some of the other composers out there, but do you really need to shit all over it for other people?
Anybody started a John Williams thread? He’s my other favorite plagiarist.
OK, so he’s a prolific hack.
Ah, so he’s the Emeril of musicals. BAM!
Your cultural and intellectual superiors.
<Puts monocle in eye, nose in air, and strides out haugtily.>
I just had an image of him slamming his baton to the ground and throwing a hunk of steak at the audience.
Thank you. It’s going to take a lot of therapy and hard work to get that out of my head. In the meantime, I’ll try not to snicker during work today.
E.
Oh, come now, be fair!
I think that it’s perfectly reasonable to trash the work of an individual without saying that everyone who likes it is stupid and an ignoramous. The OP made no comment about fans. And, she presented an argument for her opinion that was based on actual things, not just, ‘he’s teh suxx0rz’.
Everything doesn’t have to be ‘complicated’ to be good. It does have to be innovative or fresh to be critically good. I like plenty of things that aren’t particularly impressive works of art. And, I’m not ashamed of it; there’s no reason why my personal tastes need to obey some external law of goodness. But still, I know (usually) when the things I like are good, and when they’re just fun for me personally.
So, again, no one is berating people who go buy ALW tickets. People are berating ALW.
And, that phrase you keep using, ‘I can’t be bothered’ . . . I do not think it means what you think it means.
What about people who buy Thomas Kinkade prints? Can we at least berate them?
Same shows? Heck, they’re the same songs in the show. For example, listen to Oh, What a Circus and Don’t Cry For Me, Argentina–they’re the same songs with tempo changes.
Leonard Bernstein’s Candide is on PBS tonight (Wednesday, 1/12). with Kristin Chenoweth (Glinda in Wicked) singing the role of Cunegonde and Patti LuPone as the Old Lady. Candide has its flaws, but as a piece of theater it’s head and shoulders above anything ALW has ever written. For parodies of coloratura singing in the opera buffa style, compare “Poor Fool, He Does Not Know” from Phantom and “Glitter and Be Gay” from Candide, and see which is more masterful.
Only if he’s prepared.
Yes, but when there is a feeling of cross over to “How can anyone like that hack,” then you can understand when someone who likes him, or understands why people like him, might step forward to explain.
By the way, I really like your statement regarding liking things that are not particularly impressive works of art. I think it’s something too many people have a problem with; if they like something, then it has to be “as good” as any other form of art. There’s nothing wrong with admitting that you are intellectually slumming it but enjoy something nonetheless (I’ve brought this up in arguments about rap, which I really don’t want to restart here, just using the example whether you agree or disagree with the specific point).
For example, if I were to watch Desperate Housewives, I would not need to justify it saying that it’s just as valid and important an art form as a Chekhov play, and that people who disagree just aren’t getting it or are wrongfully disparaging the great art of Desperate Housewives.
You know, I’m about as big a musical theatre geek as anyone on Earth. My CD rack at present holds 350 CDs, of which close to 300 are either cast recordings or musical theatre compilations. My three favorite shows are, in order, SWEENEY TODD, Jason Robert Brown’s THE LAST FIVE YEARS, and William Finn’s A NEW BRAIN. So my musical snob credentials are hopefully valid.
And I still like most of Andrew Lloyd Webber’s stuff. No, it’s (mostly) not as good as Sondheim, at least in part because ALW chooses to work with second-rate lyricists who make his songs sound more generic than they perhaps are. But I think it’s sort of ludicrous to say that “all of his songs are the same.” “Love Changes Everything” sounds nothing like “Gethsemane” sounds nothing like “Take That Look Off Your Face” sounds nothing like “The Vaults of Heaven” sounds nothing like “One More Angel in Heaven” sounds nothing like “Wishing You Were Somehow Here Again.” Yes, “Oh, What a Circus” and “Don’t Cry for Me Argentina” are the same song, with a tempo variation, a different arrangement, and a bridge that’s been added to the former. But if we’re going to say ALW is a hack for that, then we’ll have to say it about just about every composer who’s ever lived. “It’s Hard to Speak My Mind” from PARADE has big chunks of the same melody as “How Can I Call This Home?” from the same show, and PARADE is considered one of the better scores written in recent years. Stephen Flaherty reuses melodies throughout ONCE ON THIS ISLAND, especially the opening lines of “We Dance.” That’s what musicals do, most of the time.
I get that ALW’s music is not generally particularly innovative, especially not nowadays (THE WOMAN IN WHITE is really horrible, for anyone fortunate enough to have avoided it so far). But I don’t get why that should be the only criterion by which we judge the quality of a piece of entertainment. The fact that Bruce Springsteen doesn’t write music that’s as technically impressive as, say, Tchiakovsky, doesn’t mean I can’t think it’s entertaining. HAPPY GILMORE was not as well-made a film as, say, CASABLANCA, but I like both.
Lloyd Webber writes melodies that are mostly memorable, and his productions are always flawlessly put together - well cast, generally well directed, and well performed with outstanding design work surrounding them. His music, while not always brilliant, is pleasing to hear and usually suited to the tone of the piece (contrast with Frank Wildhorn, a true hack, who writes the same songs - almost literally - for every show, heedless of setting or style).
I don’t get the venomous distaste for the man’s music, is what I’m saying. I think it’s objectively adequate, and there’s room for that right alongside the objectively great. There’s room for entertainment that doesn’t make you think alongside the entertainment that does.
Or, on preview: what Eonwe said.
Heck yeah, “lowbrow” can be tons of fun. I’m somewhat suspicious of people who never indulge in a guilty pleasure - who on earth can remain highbrow at all times?
It’s when people can’t tell the difference that it’s infuriating to those of us who can.
I’m sorry, but is anyone else getting slapped in the face by the irony of someone with the screen-name “Tracy Lord” berating the writer of musical opera shows?
How about if we substitute an “I” instead of the the “Y” in Tracy and make the last name plural? Now do you see it?
You mean like the porn star?
My apologies if that is you real name, but my irony meter was pinging off the scale.
I would be interested to know from your point of view what exactly the difference is between the two.
Why is it that anytime something gains popularity over a broad spectrum it is automatically not “good” anymore. That seems counter intuitive to me. ALW might be using the same formula over and over, but it works, it is enjoyed by millions, and makes a lot of people happy. His art might not be in writing the most musically complicated classical pieces out there, but that does not make his form of art any less valid, or any less good than Sondheim, or the like. Ultimately it is the people that decide what popular means, and if popular maeans ALW then far be it for anyone to say that it is not a real, valid, and good form of artistic expression.
The same goes for the people that write Britney Spears music. I may think it is contrived, and I don’t quite understand why it is quite so popular, but the fact remains that it is. And just because I think that other artists out there are better, it does not mean that the Spears Corp. and their music is any less of an art than Jeff Buckley, the Beatles, or anyone else.
On review it appears I may have taken that quote a tad out of context. In any case, I stand by my point.
A couple of weeks back I was subjected to a CD worth of ALWs greatest hits. While I was initially tickled that I guessed the composer on the basis of his style, I was soon depressed by the sameness of so much of it, and decided he was a hack. Needless to say, I enjoy seeing this thread pop up with the same opinion expressed by so many.
However, I still think Hack of the Millennium honors stay with Mozart. Now, there was a guy who could take a tiny idea and beat the poor thing to death!
Someone mentioned John Williams. I find most of his stuff good, though I’ve noticed some “tricks” common to many of his themes. But then, all composers accumulate a drawer full of habits. Hell, Old Bach had an annoying fondness for bringing a fugue to a screeching halt on a Neapolitan Second.
P.S.: I too feel a need to steal the metaphor “a bigger hack than Paul Bunyan”. Where do I send the royalty check?