Did Angel always refer to Angelus as “I”? I seem to recall him using “he” before.
He’s gone back and forth, and I think it depends on context. When he talks about relinquishing his soul, he refers to Angelus as a third person, but when talking about what Angelus has done, he refers to Angelus in the first person.
I wouldn’t say “always”, but Angel has a real thing about separating himself from Angelus, to the point that he sees Angelus as a separate being who inhabits his body while his soul is away, but somehow goes away when the soul is present (and we’ve seen Angel disensouled twice now.) In S1 of BtVS, when telling Buffy about killing the Gypsy girl and his subsequent reensoulment-as-punishment, he used the word “I” when referring to Angelus. I’m seeing less of that this season. I think he is gradually coming to realize that the demon Angelus is part of who he is, even if he doesn’t like to admit it.
Actually, at the Bloody Awful Poet Society, this is a pet peeve of rabid Spike fans. Angel gets to have this evil alter-ego that he gets to blame his past sins on, but Souled Spike is still perceived to be essentially the same creature as Soulless Spike. People are willing to forgive Angel for the second half of BtVS S2, because, hey, it wasn’t really Angel, it was Angelus. Spike, on the other hand gets a lot of, “What, we should forgive him just because he got his soul back? No way. Spike is eeeeeevvvvvviiiiilllllll!!!”
I’d really like to see the Angel/soul as curse vs. Spike/sought his own soul dichotomy explored. I think that is a subject that has been sadly neglected. I also think they should bring in the irony of Angel losing his soul and Spike gaining his, both because of love of the same woman.
I’d like to see them get drunk together and talk about it. But mostly, I’d like to see them get drunk together.
Minor nitpicks:
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Fred is not only the scientist, she is also a medical doctor
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for a lawyer, you’d think Gunn would pronounce “liason” (sp?) correctly
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the nurse gives the wrong meds to the wrong patient… yikes. Is ME trying to tell us something of their opinion of the healthcare system?
The one huge whole (besides Sunnydale) that the finale of BtVS left us with is all the new Slayers out there. Back when there was just one or two, we had Faith go bad and cause all sorts of havoc. Now with thousands (though many were killed by the Bringers or whatever they were called) of Slayers out there, there should be some sizable percentage who’ve gone kinda loopy with their new powers. Why haven’t they come under the control of some demon or shaman or whatever?
I have faith that Joss will address this issue at some point, but there should be some wacky Slayers out there, no Watchers in sight, who have either gone evil or at least a little zany. This collection of nouveau-Slayers should have a greater impact on the world, it’s been a while now, hasn’t it?
Otherwise, good show. Great image of Spike waking up and seeing what has been done. I suspected that it wasn’t Spike who’d done that to her, both because it’s not his MO and he would remember something so recent. When Dana killed the guy trying to help her out on the docks I guessed she was irredeemable, but isn’t that what was said about Spike, Angel, and Faith?
Good sequence at the very end, Spike and Angel may be realizing that there’s much more that holds them together than is pushing them apart.
A little Andrew goes a long way. I’d much rather have other cameos. I still have a hard time imagining Giles sending Andrew out on this mission by himself, I suspect one of the nouveau-Slayers was in control but didn’t want to show their hand.
I hope they resolve the W&H situation soon, or at least advance it. It could fester into Buffy-angst of the last two seasons, nothing happens except everyone talking about it.
One difference is that Spike is not at all repentant or sorry about what he did as a vampire. Essentially, he treats it like a phase that he was going through, like having teased hair. This is why Angel is so ticked off- remember how he complained that Spike spent three weeks moaning in a basement and was fine, whereas Angel has had to endure over a century of torment over things he did. Spike has never sought forgiveness or demonstrated any real remorse for the things he did as a soulless vampire. Angel did. As Giles says in “I Only Have Eyes For You”:
Spike has never indicated that he wants, needs, or cares about forgiveness. Hence, there is little inclination to forgive him.
Spike’s motives for getting a soul were also suspect. Again, he did it to get into a girl’s pants. Getting a soul for Spike wasn’t a means through which he could atone and be redeemed. It wasn’t like “gee, I wish I could feel sorry for what I did. I’ll go get my soul.” It was more “Buffy doesn’t love me because I have no soul. I’ll go get one.” Angelus was cursed, yes, but the curse was placed to ensure his suffering, to ensure that he had the capability of atoning and, if the Shansu prophecy is to be believed, of eventually achieving forgiveness and redemption. Spike won his soul, but he hasn’t set himself on the path to redemption yet because that’s not in his nature.
Andrew was a good choice since they wanted to keep a balance between the dark and comic sides of this episode. Also, I suspect that the writers wanted to make the connection to Buffy continuity but still keep it at a distance. Since Andrew’s only personal connection was to Spike, they could make to the connection without going too deep.
With Zander things would have been more serious, not just because of his history with Spike, Angel and Wesley but also his connection to CORDILLIA. His being there could have been a interesting segue into the next episode, but it adds complications. Fans who have not seen the early buffy episodes would have to be brought up to speed on the connection between the characters.
I missed part of the rundown of what the scoobies are up to. Could someone fill me in?
Buffy and Dawn are in Italy.
Dawn is going to school.
Buffy still hasn’t been informaed that Spike is alive. 
Willow and Kennedy are in?
Giles?
Zander?
Faith?
According to Andrew…
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Buffy and Dawn are in Rome. "She was rounding slayers up in Europe, decided she liked it there, I guess.”
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Giles’ location isn’t mentioned specifically, but I imagine he’s in London or Rome, trying to reorganize the Council.
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Willow and Kennedy are based in Sao Paolo, but “every time I talk to them they’re in Rio.”
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Xander is in Africa, also rounding up Slayers. “He sent me a mbuna fish.”
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Faith is unmentioned. I imagine she’s either training Potentials (a perfect job for her) or gone out on her own.
From what I remember off the top of my head–Willow and Kennedy are in Brazil, Xander is in Africa, Faith wasn’t mentioned, and I don’t think there was a location given for Giles. And given Andrew’s reaction, nobody knew Spike was back, which I think might have been mentioned if anybody was keeping in touch with the Scoobies.
jeevmon, please be careful with the spoilers. I don’t watch the preview, and even though I had heard a certain person was going to do a guest spot, I didn’t know it was coming up next week. There are a lot of people who stay away from any kind of spoilage, including the preview.
Andrew rubbed me the wrong way, when I first encountered him. He’s grown on me and I think it was a perfect choice. Also, I’ve read enough interviews with Weheadon, last spring, that were saying that he would jump on any opportunity to work with Tom Lenk again. The little exposition, complete with The tales of the Slayer of Vampyres cracked me up, as well as him making up stories again. That doesn’t change that the character is growing, and I can certainly see why Ripper would send him, putting everyone at ease and letting down their guards, letting Andrew pull his caper at the end. It wouldn’t have worked with Giles, and Xander have too many issues with both Angel and Spike. He’d mess up.
I enjoyed the episode very much, even though there were plotholes big enough to send through the whole Kevlornesworth clan :
- I liked Dana in the mental ward, it echoed of Sarah Connor in T2 and I think on purpose. However, was anyone surprised that she was a slayer? I think it was telegraphed way too obviously.
- Did anyone think that Spike was the guilty party? It was much to recent in time for it too have slipped his mind, and it surely would’ve come back to him, when entering the basement.
- Dana shouldn’t be able to know how to kill a vampire, or even know what one is. Potential slayers have dreams, but to me it’s obvious from canon, that there has to be a watcher, to train and explain everything.
- The doctor at the hospital clearly didn’t believe in demons. Yet, a realtor shows no signs of surprise with Lorne present.
In short, there were some cracks in the logic that supports my suspension of disbelief.
The scary/creepy parts were truly scary and the violence that was implied was pretty graphic, for tv. I don’t mind, though, but the noise when Dana was cutting into that guy with the saw… Yikes.
All the other regulars have touched upon most pros and cons that I could find. With the sweeps coming up, I’m expecting a lotof twists and turns and I’m very much looking forward to next week.
One thing - Has Angel had on his vampface anytime during the whole season?
It was a really great, fast moving episode that never went for the easy twist. It is amazing how much better characters become once they are on Angel. Nice to see the plot picking up steam. It did answer alot of leftover questions regarding the effects of the Buffy finale.
Next week, looks to be interesting as well.
[OT] Might Smallville be the spiritual heir to Buffy? Been watching it as of late and it really reminds me of Season 1-2 of Buffy (in a good way). [/OT]
Once, IIRC. He vamped when he sparred against Spike.
Wait, so you think it’s valid she knew Chinese and Romanian from the dreams, and knew who Nikki was and Robin, but she couldn’t glean how to kill a vampire from the dreams? If she was dreaming of slayers killing vamps and demons, she’d probably pick up on more than their languages.
Why is it so hard to believe that a realtor would have an easier time of believing in demons than a scientist?
Actually, Spike wanted more from Buffy than to get into her pants. Remember the opening teaser from “Dead Things”- “what’s happening here? Are we having a conversation” and the way he kept trying to nuzzle her? And have we forgotten the intense feelings of guilt he had after the AR?
Also, I seem to recall Spike going insane after being reensouled, apparently from guilt over his past crimes. (I still maintain that the First didn’t drive him insane, it just preyed upon him when he was in a very vulnerable state.) We don’t know anything about what happened to Spike between the time he got his soul back and when he finally found his way back to Hellmouth Central. Angel was a guilt-ridden, unhappy sot for nearly a century, but he wasn’t driven mad by guilt. Spike was. What he lacked in the amount of time spent suffering, he made up for in intensity. Remember what he said in “Beneath You”- "he put the spark back in, but all it does is burn.
Actually, this is quite consistent with both of their characters. Liam was most decidedly not a good man when Darla sired him. He was a drunken, whoring, theiveing lout. William, on the other hand, was a good man and a fragile, gentle soul. Angel/Angelus were both more inclined to view things over the long term, and he’s also on a more even keel emotionally, while Spike is a very impulsive, live in the moment for the moment kind of guy. So it naturally follows that Angel would suffer for a century, but still remain able to function, at least until his guilt over feeding on the guy who was shot in the diner drove him into being a rat-eating alley dweller. Even then, he still seemed to have most of his marbles when Whistler found him. Spike was completely psychologically destroyed by guilt when he got his soul back, because it was the sould of an emotionally fragile man, but he responded well to being cared for by the Woman He Loved, even if she didn’t return his love.
It’s true seeking forgiveness or redemption isn’t in Spike’s nature. But it doesn’t follow that he wasn’t sorry for his past crimes. I think it was very clear that he was grieved by them, at least up until Lies My Parents Told Me and really, killing Nikki wasn’t a murder. He fought her warrior to warrior and won.). I think there was a point where Spike realized that he needed to leave his past crimes in the past and move on. He doesn’t see his present heroic acts as trying to atone for his past, he sees it more as being who he is now, and acting based on what he knows is right.
Also, I think I said it before, Spike feels that dying to save the world entitles him to a clean slate. At this point, what he did in the past is not only in the past, it is part of a whole different life. Then factor in his antagonism toward Angel- a lot of the “unrepentance” is really bluff. Spike excels at reaction formation. Angel mopes and broods over his past sins. Spike naturally does the opposite- acts like he just doesn’t give a damn about them.
Twice, actually. He also vamped out in the first episode when he was fighting the W&H SWAT team in the elementary school.
My first thought was “friendly,” but again 8 letters. With the help of a thesaurus, I came up with “silvery,” but that’s just a synonym… anyone have an idea?
Actually, that should have said “first episode this season.”
On a different message board, someone suggested an answer that works perfectly: “sweetly.”
I was sort of hoping the answer would give a clue to the episode’s theme, but if it does, it’s too subtle for me by half.
Daniel
I imagine Goddard just thought it was funny and threw it in for shits and giggles.
Quite simply this is the kind of episode and writing that draws me to watch Angel and other Mutant Enemy productions. I have been hoping all season that they would finally get a handle on where things are going.
Continuity
Humor
Horror
In short all the things that network executives want to get rid of.