This is specifically about the movie, though if you’ve read the book (which I haven’t) feel free to chime in. And in case I didn’t mention there are
OPEN SPOILERS
Great big Vatican sized ones, as in don’t read this thread if you don’t want to know about any of the 19,321 plot twists or plot devices in this movie.
I’ll close the OP here so that people don’t get OPEN SPOILERS in mouseovers and then I’ll commence with them in post 2.
Okay, I saw this tonight in the theater. I wasn’t a fan of the book DA VINCI CODE to put it mildly- I did read it- but I’ll admit I enjoyed some of the discussions it brought about, even if half of all of them were centered on “there was no Priory of Scion”. I decided to give this one a try because reviews of Wolverine are mixed, I’ve seen STAR TREK, HARRY POTTER doesn’t come out for another couple of months, I was in the mood for a summer blockbuster, and I figured “a lot of it’s filmed in Rome so if nothing else it’ll be a good travelogue”.
If William O. Donohue and his fellow zealots at The Catholic League could get over their irrational bigotry and hatred of anything that’s remotely anti-Catholic or is said to be remotely anti-Catholic and would actually see this movie I think they’d be very pleasantly surprised, because if they did that they wouldn’t hate it as the anti-Catholic anti-Christian mockery and propaganda that it really isn’t and they’d hate it instead for the big Pantheon Dome high pile of stupid cliche soaked “that don’t even make good nonsense” idiotic shitfest that it is. It is filmed largely in ROME and those parts are good for armchair travel and that concludes the good parts of the movie.
This movie does the impossible: it makes The DA VINCI CODE look plausible as the designs of Leonardo and seamless as the robe of Christ. Dan Brown is to fluid exposition and believable plotting as Tyler Perry is to moral ambiguity and complex characterization, but then he should be since they sold their souls at the same crossroads at the same time.
Again, I haven’t read the book so I don’t know or particularly care how close it stays. I do know the book came out before Da Vinci Code changed [the] History [Channel* for all time and was set before it, while the film is a sequel rather than prequel to Da Vinci Code, not that it matters because Tom Hanks/Robert Langdon is the only carryover.
Has anybody else seen it? Because I’d love to get a count going of the plotholes- I think this could be a serious contender for the most in a big budget blockbuster. I’ll start the ball rolling:
THE VATICAN ARCHIVES-
In the movie at least they’re approximately the size of Italy and vacuum packed, and yet when Langdon is allowed in there’s NO archivist with him. Neither is there a catalog or any guide to accessioning other than the “GALILEO” plaque on the wall.
Now, if you walk into the Library of Congress vaults to pull a file on Franklin Pierce, a president who’s nowhere near as written about as Lincoln or Jefferson or Washington or the Roosevelts, I can absolutely guarantee that you’re not going to have a frigging clue how to find the recipe for tuna fish ice cream that you’re looking for without help because it’s not going to be in a bunch of numbered volumes marked “ice cream-- fish-- recipes for— F. Pierce”. Luckily the Vatican archives are a lot more user friendly; they keep 17th century documents just out on the shelves, no need for acid free volumes since it’s a vacuum after all, and once you get the permission to go in there not only does no archivist accompany you but you can tear out pages, no problem, so long as it’s an emergency. This one drove me nuts alone.
Now again, the Vatican archives are enormous in the movie (as they are in real life of course but this is like the repository of the Lost Ark huge) and of course in the movie as in real life they’re chock full of everything from holographs to monographs to handwritten treasures authored and illustrated by every name you’ve ever heard of from European history and thousands of names you haven’t. You would think that at some point the Vatican, located smack dab in the middle of Rome (which I understand actually has some historical attractions and archives of its own) would think to itself “you know, we oughtta get ourselves some kind of fancy teacher guy to tell us what these things mean”, but they don’t, so they have to fly in Robert Langdon.
Which is another thing. They’ve received a note that there are going to be a series of murders, the first one in a few hours. Do they arrange a video conference with Langdon, Interpol, the CIA, FBI, and everyone else who could conceivably have an interest in
1- The murder of a potential world leader (one of the 4 Finalists for Mr. Vatican City who are about to be murdered)
2- Missing vial of antimatter (and that’s yet another thing) that may or may not be in the hands of terrorists who may or may not have plans that include anything from the destruction of or domination of the world
3-A promised act of destruction that could kill millions of people and possibly cause a world cataclysm
No, you fly Langdon there. How long’s it take to get a man from Massachusetts to Rome anyway? An hour, two, tops. A pity San Francisco is on the other coast (which must be a good 40 minutes away) or they could have flown in Adrian Monk.
Does Langdon conference with Rome on the jet? Apparently not, they’re all talking to him for the first time when he gets there. And how do they treat this man they’ve sent for? Mock him and push him aside of course. That’s just logic, especially if you’re the Swiss guard.
And of course before you would ever let the man you’ve flown all the way from Massachusetts to Rome (again about 2 or 3 hours) what are you going to do before letting him do what you brought him over to do? Question him about his religion. And I love that scene:
“Do you believe in God?”
“I’m an academic.”
Okay…
Reminds me of the old line “that don’t make good sense… hell, that don’t even make good nonsense…”. Academics are all over the map in religion. I’ve known academics who are atheists and academics who wear yarmulkes and hijabs and academics who are priests (rumor is there are actually academics right there in the Vatican! Not in the archives of course, they have the night off) and
Well we’re running out of time and the murders are about to start, so…
Once Robert Langdon works his magic and tells you that the upside down W and missing T and twice dotted I and picture of Skippy the Duck in Galileo’s MadLibs book means that Cardinal Timmy has fallen in the well at the Pantheon, do they immediately send half the Roman police force to seal off and perimeter the Pantheon? OF COURSE NOT DON’T BE RIDICULOUS! You send this middle aged professor to do the physically demanding job.
And all this is in the first 30 minutes. Then it gets stupid.
So ye who’ve seen it join me. Or defend it.
Aw damn, you quit just when it was getting good!
Yeah, I saw it, but your version is much more entertaining, please continue!
Even though I’m an atheist, I have thing for religious imagery and beautiful churches (I would love to see the Sistine Chapel in person someday), so I did like all that, and the interesting statues. And the female physicist (the actress, not the character). But yeah, not even Ewan and Stellan could save this mess. No wonder Stellan was so snide toward Dan Brown.
(luckily I also saw the tiny, sweet and quirky Management the same night, so my trip to the theater wasn’t wasted)
If I remember correctly, in the book you have the Head of Security at the Vatican - presumably a practical, educated man - who asks “What’s anti-matter? Is it dangerous?” :smack:
And of course, when notifying the Vatican about an emergency, the best people to send are an American Professor of symbols and a pretty girl in a miniskirt.
Does the movie really have anti matter? Anti-Matter? I thought you guys were kidding. Maybe you defaced Wikipedia also. The Illuminati want to blow up the Vatican with anti matter? This Die Hard/ Star Trek crossover fan fic.
If it’s anything like the book, yeah, it’s anti matter. I kinda liked the book for it’s story, it’s complete bogus, but a nice idea - but all the random pieces of sci-fi that Brown put in there really really annoyed me. It was complete nonsense and unnecessary. Why that strange supersonic jet? The anti matter? The miracle landing from the helicopter? If he’d used a stolen sowjet sub warhead and a few not-quite-so-outrageous plot devices, this might have been a good book. So it’s just a good idea.
ETA: I read the book, probably won’t see the movie unless a friend recommends it.
The scene with the LHC pissed me off. The music played, the colours, and the editing put forth an idea that something nefarious is going on there. Considering all the bullshit conspiracy theories that people have about the LHC, I just dont think it’s helpful at all. It seems to be playing off people’s fear - and I HATE that.
This sums up my feelings nicely so I’ll steal it.
Also, this whole movie seems to hinge on Ewan McGregors really convoluted plot. Any number of things can go wrong along the way. He’s banking on them finding the anti-matter within a 2 minute window so he can take it outside and become the hero. Also, batteries are a crapshoot. I’ve been on enough cold film sets to know that battery life isn’t shorted a minute, we’re talking by half.
Also, there isn’t ONE camera in the pope’s chamber, there are FOUR. I find it hard to believe he (Ewan) didn’t notice a single one of them? When Stellan opens his hand to show him the key right before he dies, Langdon doesn’t pick up on it right then that maybe there is more to the situation? That scene has about as much subtlety as “Cat Burglar Andre the Giant”.
Is there some reason they needed to rush the plot so much? When did they show up at the Vatican, a quarter after seven? Is there any particular reason for this? It’s also annoying that Langdon seems to solve every clue in about 25 seconds. Why not work through things a big, give the audience a chance to feel smart instead of doing all of the work for us.
The scientist lady was pretty hot though, liked her.
Read the book; probably won’t see the movie until it shows up on HBO. But:
The problem of distance to be travelled by Langdon is easily resolved by sending him on the super fancy super sonic plane thingy.
Much bally-hoo given to the script that can be read upside-down or right-side up; which was thought to have been impossible, and even computers couldn’t accomplish the task. Even though Dan Brown apparently doodled one up and printed it in the book right there in your hands.
One nitpick that stuck in my craw for years. He describes the piece of critical videotape as “cellulose”, when the word he wants is “celluloid”. Look in a damn dictionary, Dan.
I don’t think there was any mention of a supersonic plane in the film.
Yeah I’m not sure why that was thought to be such a big deal. In the film there is a brief shot of a book showing illustrations of several other “Illuminati” ambigrams, so I don’t know why that one in particular was supposed to mean anything.
At least the miracle fall from the helicopter was excised from the film.
What was funny was I saw “Star Trek” the same day and couldn’t help but think:
(Spoiler for Star Trek)
*Two *films, both or whose plots hinge on a fancy glass magnetic canister containing a tiny speck of anti-matter, suspended in mid-air, that if it explodes would destroy anything in it’s path!?
So, will I enjoy this movie if I really like bad movies? I’m kind of tempted to go see it. I read the book, and it was pretty laughable. (I’d never heard of Dan Brown and thought it was an art history mystery.) Common sense says I should wait for the Rifftrax, but I’m still tempted…or is this just irritatingly, boringly bad?
Sometimes I wish you lived in Utah, dangermom. You always want to see the same bad films that tempt me.
Pep, even for you I could not live in Utah. Which is an awful character flaw on my part, but there it is.
They messed up the election procedure itself. Of course Fr McKenna is eligable to be elected pope; he’s both baptised and male. Those are the only two actual legal requirements . Granted it’s been centuries since a non-cardinal was elected and a over a millenium since a lay man. Nor is acclamation allowed anymore.
I wished that McGregor’s plot because I’d love to have seen his coronation as Pope Blackadder I.
Believe it or not I’d never heard of those, but I’ve a feeling I’m going to be buying some soon. How do they work? Is it an audio download or do they send you a CD or what?
Well I’ll give it this: it’s not boring. It’s non stop action sequences, and lots of Roman shots.
Having never been to Rome I always somehow supposed that things like The Pantheon were surrounded by at least some green space so it’s odd to see that it’s surrounded on all sides by other buildings. Also having never been to Rome even I am familiar with its reputation for insanely congested and erratic traffic, almost as if centuries and millennia old streets weren’t set up for four wheel vehicles, which is why I thought it was hysterical that they’re trying to criss-cross Rome with only minutes to spare before a murder without even using sirens, let alone calling ahead to the Roman police and saying “it’d be a good idea if you’d send all possible units to XYZ and if you see anything out of the ordinary like a van parked in a no parking zone or a chained up and screaming cardinal with a brand on his chest suspended over flames let us know and maybe open fire” instead of “well, we got a middle aged jetlagged professor with us”.
I also loved Substitute Pope Ewan’s subtle throwaway comment to the effect of “Aye, me adopted Da the Pope wanted me to be a priest but I wanted to go in the armed forces, and that’s where I learned to fly planes and choppers… dunno why I mention that really, it’s not important to what you’re looking for, and I doubt it’ll come up again that I know how to fly military aircraft… but I can ya know”.
Something that was unintentionally hysterical is when the antimatter bomb goes off and it looks like a Renaissance depiction of hell in the sky all I could here was the line from the mvoie Ed Wood when the meat wholesaler who’s bankrolling Bride of the Monster tells Ed
While I’m still thinking of that scene/that line it cuts to the College of Cardinals where THE SAME ACTOR WHO PLAYED THE MEATCUTTER is playing an American cardinal! Hysterical, and I’d totally forgotten that the character actor who played the meatcutter is Ron Howard’s real life father, Rance Howard.
I’d have to see it again to get the exact line but there’s a scene in the Pantheon when Langdon (Hanks) scoffs to the Vaticop with him that “pity the Pope ordered all the beautiful marble statues of pagan gods destroyed”. I can’t remember how he says this, but it implies it was a fairly recent thing like the castration of the statues he mentions earlier by Pius IX, when in fact the Pope ordered the pagan statues destroyed 1500 years ago!
Which was actually rather reasonable when you’re reconsecrating a temple, a temple that was then centuries old and had been repeatedly looted and- literally- vandalized anyway long before the church even claimed it, so who the hell knows what statues were still there and what condition they were in.
I haven’t seen/read Angels & Demons, but I did read The Da Vinci Code and I have to say I was rather annoyed by the library scene. Our Heroes go to some important library in London (I can’t remember which one, I don’t think it was the British Library though) and are greeted by the kindly old lady librarian. Probably had her hair in a bun with a couple of pencils sticking out of it.
The librarian basically says “Oh, you’re friends of Sir Teabing, let me run the same database search for you that I always do for him!” She doesn’t really ask them what they’re after, no reference interview or anything, she just punches in the search terms and then wanders off to make tea. (Brown seems to think that full text searches take 10+ minutes to complete.) Very helpful. Our Heroes are on their own when it comes to refining/changing the original search. Of course they find what they want right away anyway.
I was in library school when I read the book and this really ticked me off. Has Dan Brown ever even been to a library? I mentioned this when out after class with some friends, and one friend’s boyfriend (History of Science Ph.D. candidate) was very amused – he said “Of all the criticisms I’ve heard of The Da Vinci Code, you’re the first person I’ve heard complain about its portrayal of librarians!”
Rifftrax is the greatest thing since sliced bread, or at least since MST3K went off the air. You download an mp3 of the riff track, which you play on your favorite mp3 player, while watching your own version of the DVD. They give you periodic audio cues to keep the audio and DVD in synch.
And it works just as well for good movies as for bad ones. The Rifftrax LOTR:FOTR is hysterical.
I forgot to mention that the particular Galileo manuscript is written on papyrus (in the 17th century) so that it can be destroyed easily if captured, and thus the one in the Vatican is the only remaining one. Apparently none of the Illuminati ever thought of the fact that once they were out of the Death Star’s tractor beam they could copy it onto vellum or regular paper or onto the side of a building for that matter with relative impunity.
Anyway, since it’s a 400 year old document on papyrus Langdon picks it up with tweezers and then thumbs through it by gloved hand. And his she-assistant rips a page out of it. Later the Vatican gives it to him as thanks for his services with the provision he bequeathe it back to them in his will (after all he guarded it so well the first time). The Vatican has 20 acre vacuum vaults for its archives, yet lucky for Langdon they’ve never learned of digitizing equipment or how to see invisible ink once he’s shown them.
snerk
