Um, have you been reading the Old Testament lately?
You have the facts but you glibly ignore them. You can continue to cite hundreds of url’s in defense of the Pit Bull,all by those with a biased interest. The one unbiased site you provided completely backs my allegation that the breed is by far the most dangerous in America. From the CDC link you provided, is this fact. ** Sixty deaths from 1979 to 1996 were at the jaws of pedigreed Pit Bulls. The total number of deaths from all dogs during the same period is One hundred and ninety-nine. In other words,30% of all fatalities from dog attacks result from the Pit Bull breed**
I don’t know how may Pit Bulls there are compared to all dogs, but it is sure a lot less than 30%. 5% is my guess. I’m going by the unbiased facts you provide scratch, not by emotion. And temperament? I know the Pit Bull is exceedingly well tempered. Until it freaks out.
I’m guessing you read the tables on the CDC site greinspace but not the methodology : you might want to go back and read how the numbers were arrived at.
Oh, did I say 5%. The University of Dayton Law Review 1988 states right at the top of the page that the Pit Bull makes up 2% of the population of dogs. As the article is dated to 1988, halfway through the CDC study period, it is good average for the relative population of Pit Bulls to dogs.** That means that 2% of the dog population,Pit Bulls, are responsible for 30% of the homocides due to dogs.** Lets try this another way, so you can understand** scratch**.
**You are 15 times more likely to die from a Pit Bull than the average dog!**This is the breed you say has human aggression bred out of them. I think you should own up to your ignorance and apologize. Lives are at stake here. Unlike you, I have never misrepresented the facts.
You’ll never hear such a thing from me. I might want to have *this particular dog * destroyed (and I’m not sure I would, I don’t know anything about the dog except that he can’t be trusted off lead. Or even on lead unless the person holding it is strong and responsible enough to control him) but I don’t believe that any breed can be said to be exceptionally aggressive.
I think the evidence is that where I live, asshole human beings who think it is cool to have aggressive dogs select Pit Bulls because they are tough and strong and were bred to fight and then they teach them to be aggressive.
I also believe that different breeds have different temperaments that are genetic, and anyone who knows dogs knows this is true. For instance, my dog is perfect example of a Golden Retriever: she is relentlessly joyful. Even today, right after being attacked, she had no residual distress…as far as Maggie is concerned, life is great! And I know that people have bred Pit bulls to increase their innate aggressiveness. But that can be expressed, or it can be controlled. It is up to the person who trains the dog.
Here’s what I think: dogs are fantastic. People are assholes. And people who turn their fantastic dogs into assholes like them are the worst.
stoid
still freaked out, but not holding it against the dog.
I don’t know you. I gather from this thread that someone you know was attacked by an APBT. I am sorry. I am sorry that an inncoent person was hurt. Most of all, I’m sorry it wasn’t you, and that your neck wasn’t the target. You have found the perfect cover for the racest, realizing that his bile will no longer be tolerated when humans are the target. You can vent your diseased spleen at a helpless animal breed who is quite unable to fight back. Either that, or maybe the reasoning part of your brain is busy considering your next order from the Fingethut catalog, and how it will fullfill your worthless life, and you have let the subconsious take over, driving your life on an unthinking, media hysteria driven crusade. The specifics don’t matter. I’m gonna lay it out for you, in words even a kindergarden student could understand.( I know that’s several levels above you, but do try to keep up, m’kay?) Baring certain individual animals who may be defective due to inbreeding or whatever,
THERE ARE NO BAD DOGS, ONLY BAD OWNERS
That’s got a ring to it, dosen’t it? Let’s try it together.
THERE ARE NO BAD DOGS, ONLY BAD OWNERS
again
THERE ARE NO BAD DOGS, ONLY BAD OWNERS
keep going
THERE ARE NO BAD DOGS, ONLY BAD OWNERS
THERE ARE NO BAD DOGS, ONLY BAD OWNERS
THERE ARE NO BAD DOGS, ONLY BAD OWNERS
hell, that’s got a rhythem, and you can dance to it. Join me on the chorus:
THERE ARE NO BAD DOGS, ONLY BAD OWNERS
THERE ARE NO BAD DOGS, ONLY BAD OWNERS
THERE ARE NO BAD DOGS, ONLY BAD OWNERS
THERE ARE NO BAD DOGS, ONLY BAD OWNERS
Think about that. You seem to think dogs are like Tinker Toys™. They should all be shipped from the factory in perfect working order. Well, they are not. Dogs require time and effort. They can be and are the most wonderful non-human companions around, but, like humans, they are individuals who react and learn from the way they are treated. What does this mean?
THERE ARE NO BAD DOGS, ONLY BAD OWNERS
Why the hell aren’t you out there advocating that people who want to have a cannine companion be required to learn and understand the dog’s needs and requirements for training and socialization? Nope, that would require you to think, and the result might be:
THERE ARE NO BAD DOGS, ONLY BAD OWNERS
So jump on the bandwagon, rally with the mob. Be an idiot. I don’t care. Just…do us here who are fighting ignorance with all our might a favor, huh? Cover yourself with honey and smack a bee hive, then jump into the Amazon river to wash it off, while simultaniously slashing your wrist to attract pirannas, and tying an anchor around your neck. As you die, make your last thought this:
THERE ARE NO BAD DOGS, ONLY BAD OWNERS, you peutrid, puss, leaking from the hemmeroid of mankind’s asshole.
FTR, I do not, and have never owned an APBT, but I do have 2 dogs, one of whom was a completely feral stray, whom I took in and taught how to behave. He sometimes gets excited and may jump agressively, but he ALWAYS knows exactly who is the alpha dog here (me) and you couldn’t ask for a better pet. Go fuck a power transformer and die, you ignorant, inbread, brainless waste of O[sub]2[/sub]
That all fine and dandy reprise, I tried and can’t find anything to dispute the facts that I took from the article. In fact, I didn’t see a table. Care to clarify your point?
Quit being such a baby! If you dispute the facts I presented give me the numbers that say otherwise. Your childish response only serves to diminish the credibility of your position.
Well…I dunno, define warning. Maggie and I sure didn’t have any today.
I swear, I was ready to kill that dog, and frankly did my best to do so, with all the terrible deadliness of my stupid foot flailing at the dog, who seemed completely oblivious no matter how hard I kicked.
After it was all over, though, I was seriously pissed at the owners; those people forced me to do something I have never done in my life: kick a dog, and kick a dog with the sincere desire of causing it great bodily harm. I deeply resent being put in that position, I gotta say.
Why?
-fh
To greinspace and anyone else interested in reading the material from which CDC figures are derived, here is a link to a bibliography with links to the actual studies.
A small quote from the conclusions section of the major study (the bolding is mine):
It takes some time to read this material and you need Acrobat to do so, but it’s well worth reading both about why the studies were undertaken, the methodology involved (this is especially relevant in respect of how bites by mixed breed dogs were recorded), and the conclusions drawn by the researchers (their recommendations certainly weren’t for breed-specific legislation).
You will get no argument from me that vicious dogs should be put down greinspace - I have personally had a dog I didn’t trust put down rather than take the risk she would bite someone (I’m an animal welfare carer and she was a German shepherd cross I didn’t feel happy about rehousing given her aggressive tendencies).
I do not, however, believe that banning a breed (and remember that the vast majority of dogs of this breed do NOT cause injury to other animals or people) is going to solve the problem of irresponsible dog owners.
There are a heap of people out there who should probably never own any dog, let alone a territorial or dominant temperament breed. There are very real responsibilities which go with owning dominant dogs, and it is encumbent upon breeders and owners alike to ensure that those responsibilities are fully met (and then some).
I think the solution is to push for laws which ensure more responsible dog ownership, and enforce those laws to the full. That way, no matter what dog is currently trendy and being made deliberately aggressive by the “big, bad, mean dog” brigade, those people who take appropriate responsibility for their pets will be unaffected, and those who do not will be penalised (and yes, I do consider it totally irresponsible to acquire a dog if you are not familiar with the traits of the breed and especially if you are not willing to establish your position as alpha male - or in my case alpha bitch).
If you want to get an idea of how dogs should be socialised and trained, spend some time around dog shows : in the handling events handlers are paired with a dog they haven’t handled before - the mark of a well trained dog is that it will respect the unknown handler and obey them, and the mark of a good handler is the ability to establish that dominance. There are no magic tricks to raising a good dog or being a good owner, both come from an investment of time and effort.
Ummmm, I haven’t seen you present a fact yet, just knee jerk anicdotal “evidence”. The only “baby” I see here is you. Whats wrong, chillin? Angry cuz we crucified your holy cow and you can’t refute it? The burdon of proof is on you. Too bad you can’t provide any.Asshole.
oldscratch:
I did state that the dog was used to playing with kids. There were no kids actually living in the home, but the owner’s nephews regularly played with the dog since he was a puppy. I also believe I made it clear that the owner was very responsible and affectionate to the dog, and trained it well (to be a companion, not to be aggressive).
When the attack occurred, the owner was sitting across the small living room from us, approximately 6 feet away. My son and the dog were playing on the floor between us. My son would toss the ball a few feet, the dog would retrieve it and drop it, and my kid would toss it again. If that dog gave any “obvious” warning signs, they were too subtle for us to see or hear despite the fact that the animal was just a couple of feet away from us and never out of our line of sight.
It’s presumptious of you to assume that I am unfamiliar with dogs. Besides having personal experience with family dogs, I also worked for a few years in a veterinary hospital. There, I worked daily with dozens and dozens of dogs, many of them sick or wounded. I entered their cages, bathed them, held them while the veterinarian treated them, and generally did all sorts of things that led me to gain an extreme familiarity with dog warning signs. I’m far more familiar with dogs and dog behavior than is the average person.
The dog that attacked my son gave no warning of any kind.
My entire point is this: sometimes (albeit rarely) dogs do attack for no apparent reason, despite having been raised by conscientious owners. It is not always entirely the owner’s fault. I don’t favor breed-specific legislation. I believe dog owners should be held accountable for their pets’ behavior.
See my “reasonable solution” over in GD.
Ok, you are right in one way- OldS- Pit Bulls do not really attack without ANY warning- however, they attack without the normal signs that most of us think of as being an “attack warning”- which comes out to be the same thing. Ie, if you have no idea that the stiff stance, etc is an attack warning, as you have always looked for snarling & growling, you are gonna get taken by surprize. My Shetland sheepdog always growled, snarled, then snapped. She never got to the biting stage- as you had to be a complete moron to not pick up on THAT warning. .
And, as far as strength, you are both wrong and right. Pit Bulls are not exceptionally strong for their weight. (Huskies, now- ooohdoggies, I had a 35# female siberian who was stronger than any other dog up to twice her size). But, they are stronger than most dogs- as they are BIGGER than most dogs. And, many dogs, being longer haired- look bigger than they really are. I would say that PB’s are a bit more powerful than is average for their size.
What is needed is not “banning” but restrictions on breeders- for all breeds, and especially for those who are “potentially dangerous”. And, powerful laws against training a dog to fight, etc.
grienspace:
No one’s disputing the facts, grienspace, they’re disputing your morning-talk-show interpretation of the facts. According to this JAVMA article from the CDC’s website, statistics do indeed indicate that pit bulls are involved in a disproportionate number of fatal dog attacks, which would seem to support your position. But if you dig a little deeper, and interpret the statistics honestly, you’ll see that the article refutes every single argument you have put forward in this thread and the one referenced by the OP.
1. On data-collection:
So the data itself may be faulty. And in any case, the raw data don’t support rash generalizations about a particular breed. There is at least one very significant mitigating factor that must be considered.
2. On context:
According to the CDC, nonfatal dog bites requiring medical attention increased 36% from 1986 to 1994. I haven’t been able to find any breed-specific data on nonfatal dog bites, but it seems reasonable to think that those figures would be skewed toward smaller breeds of dogs, since the larger breeds tend to kill when they attack. It may not be important to the people who were killed by pit bulls, but it is very important when you are trying to determine aggressiveness in order to formulate public policy. The Canine Temperament test scores that oldscratch referred to appear to support this point of view.
(And on a personal note, the most aggressive dog I’ve ever known was a Lhasa Apso that my parents got for me when I was 12. I loved that dog, but he was jumpier than George W. Bush at a Mensa convention. If you startled him, got too close to him when he was eating, or cut a loud fart while he was in the room, he would growl or snap at you. Not a very scientific example, I admit, just my own experience.)
3. On public policy:
In other words, THERE ARE NO BAD DOGS, ONLY BAD OWNERS. OK, maybe that’s a generalization, but it’s pretty clear that you can’t completely separate a dog’s behavior from the treatment it receives from its owner.
That’s about it, grienspace. Check out the article if you get a chance. If nothing else, you might discover that tossing random statistics around is a poor way to make an argument. Good luck.
I’ve known quite a few pits in my day. Most good-natured and protective of their owners. A couple were ill-tempered, though not nearly as ill-tempered as their asshole owners.
From what I’ve seen, when a pit bull doesn’t like you or considers you a threat to it’s owners, it lets you know. The pit won’t bark, but will adopt a stance and demeanor that IMHO is unmistakably threatening.
If a pit bull attacks someone, it’s their owners fault. Same goes for any other breed that attacks someone. The owner of any large dog should have sense enough to take precautions that the dog is never allowed to roam off it’s grounds.
If a pit attacks someone, take a good hard look at the person who raised it. I bet you won’t like what you see.
I agree about dachshunds being evil. My grandmother had one I was terrified of as a child…of course, my being terrified of it might have made her more likely to try and scare me, but everybody agreed it was a foul-tempered dog. The poor thing was as much of a hermit as my grandmother, though, and never had the opportunity to learn how to act around people it didn’t see often.
I have a friend who had a pit bull he bought from a backyard breeder. He was trying to make it mean - he’s not a nice person, but I’ve known him for years and for some reason I overlook his many personality flaws. Anyway, he did everything you shouldn’t do to raise a well-adjusted dog, he would physically abuse the dog, not allow anyone but family and close friends to pet it, try to encourage it to bark and growl at people - but the dog never became aggressive towards humans, was actually quite timid. He had a pup maybe 1/3 it’s size that totally dominated the pit, because it WAS aggressive. His neighbors were scared of the dog anyway, and someone poisoned it.
BTW, I keep hearing people mention 120 lb. pit bulls in the original pit bull genocide thread. The biggest ones top out at around 110 lbs., and it’s rare for them to exceed 85 lbs. They are usually between 30-55 lbs. (and originally they averaged much smaller in size). I don’t think some people realize how huge a 120 lb. dog is. I knew a guy with what I felt was a giant rottweiler, bigger than any pit bull I had ever seen - very intimidating dog. I asked him how much it weighed, guessing 90-100 lbs. (basing my guess on my sister’s great danes, which weigh 110-130 lbs). I was pretty far off, he tipped the scales at 70 lbs. Most pit bulls in excess of 55 lbs. are not pure pits, they have been crossbred with larger dogs.
Well, well, Scratchy. Now what the fuck are you going to do? You are quoted as saying that Pit Bulls do not attack without warning.
Unlike your personally vitriolic attacks, I’ll simply tell you what happened to me. No, not some third hand story heard at the local bar. Not something I read in the paper. To me. Of course, my guess is that you will call me a liar, dispute the very fact of the attack and injury and assume I’ve made this up. But, that’s just a guess based on your attacks of other posters in this thread.
There is a junk yard in Astoria, NY. It’s on the curve of Astoria Blvd, in the 60’s. The part where the Blvd. is curving over the beginnings of the BQE. I entered this junkyard during the day. A business day. I did not break in. I did not run. I did not scream, yell, or throw things at a dog in any way.
There is a small trailer up on blocks in the middle of the junkyard. To get TO that trailer, one walks down an aisle of junked cars on either side. I witnessed two Pit Bulls, chained to junked cars. Neither could reach the aisle, but both could get within 10 feet or so of it. As I walked by, both lunged repeatedly and snarled. I walked up the steps to the trailer, and knocked. I was told by the owner of the junkyard to enter. I did so.
Upon entering, I saw another Pit Bull. It was chained to the desk. I stood just inside the door, not moving my hands at all. I spoke in a very even handed tone,and asked for the part I was looking for. Now, remember, I did NOT break in, raise my voice, threaten or abuse the dog or owner in ANY WAY. I was painfully aware of the dog at all times.
The owner checked some paperwork, and told me he didn’t have what I needed, and suggested another yard over on Vernon Blvd. near the river. I turned to go, and the Pit Bull jumped and bit me on the elbow. ** Scratch **, you want to call me all manner of obscene liar-type names and tell me I’d best not reproduce at this point? I’m Infertile anyway, so take your best and most loathesomely angry shot here, because I was the DIRECT victim of this Pit Bull attack.
The dog bit through a medium weight Melton Wool type of jacket, and through the shirt beneath. He hung for a second, then dropped. I screamed when he bit me ( yeah, I know, it’s now totally MY fault for provoking this poor, sweet helpless little huggybunny by daring to scream when bitten in the arm. Uh huh.) The owner of the yard grabbed the dog by it’s chain, and raised up his fist…and pounded the dog in the head to punish it. I left as fast as I could.
Not apocryphal. Not third hand. I was attacked, as I stood quietly, NOT moving one fucking bit, talking to a man whose business was OPEN that day, having NOT forced my way through a door. In fact, I entered ONLY when the owner said, Yeah come in. SO, the dog HEARD the owner allow me to come in.
I truly don’t care if you believe this or not. I lived it, and have lived the recovery afterwards. For the other people reading the postings on this thread, consider that not every thing is black and white. People do get attacked without warning by Pit Bulls. ( Just as they do by other breeds, no doubt).
Cartooniverse
Oldscratch:
I got that info about the breaking bar off a pretty good pro pit-bull web site, which debunked the lockjaw myth. Even that site suggests that they can be extremely tenacious in their grip, and this fact is what the myth is based on. One kennel I looked at online showed pictures of the dogs hanging suspended by their teeth to demonstrate their tenacity.
I remain firm in my belief that the bad rap Pit Bulls have is due in large part to some irresponsible owners and breeders.
Those who encourage their dogs to be aggressive, and those that breed for gameness, due so to the detriment of both the breed and the public at large.
It’s little different than any other breed. Take a large powerful animal, behave stupidly with it, and you’ve got a problem.
Cartooniverse, how big of a judgement did you get from the junkyard? You did sue them, right?
Again, the problem in your personal example is the owner of the dogs. Three attack dogs chained in such close proximity to where he expects customers to be? If that’s not negligent, I don’t know what is.