My son and I were on the bus one day a few years ago, and saw a pit bull run across the street, grab a tiny poodle being walked by its 70 year old owner and never let go.
The owner came over and kept hitting the dog, telling it to let go, but til the bus took off, it didn’t. Eventually, I’m sure it did.
My son is afraid of pits.
It s a fact that no matter how mad a chihuahua is, it can’t kill you.
Banning pit bulls? Isn’t that like banning a gun thats known to go off without warning?
Why is it on the news so much?
I’ve never seen anything on the news about a dog attacking a human being that Wasn’t a pit bull.
Is it Always the owners fault?
I came back on to add something to my posting, but I want to address Spooje first. I agree, it’s negligent. I won’t get into any details of a lawsuit, it’s not what this thread is about and I don’t wish to hijack. However… the fact that you lay blame at the owner’s feet may be totally accurate. You ** CAN’T** change the fact that I was indeed attacked. This is only an abstract until it becomes awfully terribly personal.
Now, the reason I was going to post again. Before you get out the 36 inch studded reamer and have fun at the expense of my attack, I’ll say this much. Scratch, you’ve once again debated your points expertly. Your hard factual cites make a persuasive argument. I must agree ( and, I’m no fucking dog lover ) that education, and careful training seem to be the core issues. I’ll give you that 100%. But don’t you get it…the truth doesn’t change. People do get attacked by Pit Bulls. Either you accept what I’ve told you of my first-hand attack, or you simply need to call me a fucking liar, and say I’ve made it up whole cloth. But, explain the scars.
Either way, I don’t care. I know what I lived.
Cartooniverse
Damn, I was so done with this subject.
**
I never said it was Pit Bulls that did this. And yes, they were allegedly trained to be aggressive by their owners (but not towards children, they had a little girl of their own), but the story is still sickening. I wish I had made it up, then this kid would be alive. Why don’t you stop assuming everyone is full of shit. You’re sitting on a pretty tall, steaming heap yourself.
http://leerburg.com/rotkill2.htm
**
OK, maybe I missed it, but from what orifice did you pull this? Perhaps other dogs bite more, but from the stats I’ve seen (and cited), Pit Bulls, Rottweilers and similar dogs are more likely to do more damage. I imagine those little yappy dogs bite more, but they’re easier to control once they’re in biting mode.
**
I just liked the sound of it, but since it doesn’t have any toilet humor involved, I suppose you wouldn’t apprecate that sort of insult.
Look, I really have nothing new to say on the subject, so I won’t even bother arguing. I said what my opinion was. You obviously are of a different opinion. Viva la difference! I really don’t feel like getting into a pissing contest since you’re a lot better at making up funny little insults relating people to bodily functions and such. So have whatever the hell kind of dog you want, just be sure that you’re a good owner and use the mind control that you seem to think owners have over their dogs to be sure it never mauls or kills anyone.
Well, since everyone seems to be throwing around anecdotal evidence, I’ll add mine to the mix. (With a tip of the hat to Shayna, who posted in the same vein.)
When I was growing up, I owned a Cairn Terrier. Same breed as Toto. My dog was the largest one of her litter, and grew to around 25 pounds. While I grew up, I saw her: 1) scare off a full size German Shepherd who was following me home from the bus stop. (Wasn’t attacking me, but it was too close to HER human, I suppose.) 2) Attack a full size rottweiler that the neighbors across the street owned. The rottweiler got the worst of it. (And DeskMonkey? Once my dog got into the fight, I could NOT control her.)
My dog also bit two people. This was due to them being dumbasses. If a dog is barking, and the owner asks to to wait a minute whil she puts the dog in her cage, DON’T put your bare leg in the damn door!
So, my all this logic floating around, my dog is dangerous too. Whatever.
CartoonU,
I dont think Scratch is saying that no one has ever been attacked by a PBT. You might notice the part of his post that says
and you yourself said:
Sounds like a fantasic owner…I wonder why you got attacked? :rolleyes:
Cartooniverse, with all due resepect, I don’t think that oldscratch ever said that people don’t get attacked by pit bulls. He said that the idea that pit bulls are an inherenly dangerous breed is a myth. I’m very sorry that you got attacked, but, as you said, the owner of these dogs seemed to be cruel to them, and it seems that he deserves a lot of blame for their aggression. You can train any breed of dog to be aggressive, or violent, and unfortunately, it seems like that’s what their owner did here.
There are bad breeders, too. Sorry to ruin your chant.
I love Dachshunds; I have two little bitches who protect hearth, home and three kids. One in particular is quite the grouchy bitch. The other is quite timid and lets dominant Sugarladysweetcakes do most of the work. However Honeybunnysweetiepie will let you know that you don’t have permission to enter unless I say so. Ten pounds of little dog who doesn’t know that they are little. Their self-stated purpose in life are to guard the house, smell-o-rama reconnaisance and velcro body heat next to anyone in our house. I love those dogs alot.
Well trained dogs who know there station in life. Here’s an organigram of power in our household:
me
| - mr kiffa when home
|
Sugarladysweetcakes
| | |
kid 1 kid 2 kid 3
|
Honeybunnysweetiepie
I once had a level-headed discussion with someone about APBTs. I was very ignorant/mis-informed about the breed. He told me (as Oldie did with the temperament tests. He also said that more children are attacked by Labs than any other breed. (there are more of them and being a “family” pet, owners may not be as watchful - this info may be bunk, idunno).
There were two points made that I found interesting. The first deals with the Human Agression thing. There is a famous PB breeder (in New jersey?). Because the PB is so “friendly” around people (not prone to attack/not threatened) people (baddies) would steal PB dogs during the night. She had to have other, more human-aggressive, breeds guard the PBs!
Here’s the interesting thing. Consider that “game” PBs (those bread and ideally suited for fighting) would be at a disadvantage if they had a lot of human aggression. What a fight dog owner wants is a dog with gobs of dog aggression. Now consider that in a dog fight ring there are now fewer than 3 people (two owners and a referee/judge). If this breed were to attack humans unprovoked, would you stand in a ring with another person’s dog?
I ain’t getting into the good dog/bad dog thing, and I don’t know if this has been posted elsewhere (too lazy to read long threads and scared of GD), but I just thought I’d share.
My mother has owned 2 Pit Bulls. Both were the absolute sweetest dogs. We played with them as kids, even my youngest brother, who was 5 when we had Ranger (so named for the markings on his face that looked like a mask :)). The next one, Clementine was a great watch dog. If anyone came up, she’d try to love them into submission. It took months to convince my friends it was safe to get out of the car because she was very large and tended to jump around the door when they pulled up, but it was just to get them out to play. This dog not only played nicely with my cats, but let them sleep with her and she protected them from the hunting dogs my uncle owned that roamed freely around the property just like the rest of our pets. My brother bought a registered PB who’s sire had been a champion pit fighter. He named it Sugar and babied it. I swear it ate better than he did. But none of these dogs ever bite anyone. Hell, they didn’t even bother the rabbits that lived in our yard.
Now, my aunt’s Pit was a menace. The mailman wouldn’t deliver packages to her door because of Barker after the first time he got out of his truck and was promptly bitten. My aunt never paid any attention to the dog and her husband and son played rough with him all the time. They wanted him mean. They thought it was funny. We didn’t visit that aunt much because of that dog. Unfortunately, he got too mean and the sheriff finally confiscated him.
What’s my point? Just like the rest of us, how they’re raised and treated when they’re dictates what kind of adults they turn into. I have two kids and if I had room (which is IMHO very imoortant if you’re going to have dogs)I would get a PB in a heartbeat.
::sigh:: Preview is my friend…
How they’re treated when they’re young
and plenty of room is very important
Cartooniverse, I think you missed the entire point of oldscratch’s post. I’m sure he would not deny that you were attacked/bitten by a Pit Bull. But what you fail to grasp here is that the dog didn’t bite you for no reason whatsoever. You didn’t have to “provoke” him by taunting, or acting aggressively. To some animals, merely being in their territory is enough provokation for them. Especially if they’ve been trained to protect their territory in this manner. I would say that clearly the dog you encountered was.
In addition, you say the dog only came after you when you turned to leave. That movement alone can be considered aggressive to a dog, regardless as to whether you were moving towards him or away from him. The slightest move at all could be construed as confrontational to that particular animal.
That the dog in question was a Pit Bull is irrelevant to this discussion because of the fact that the owner was clearly using these dogs for protection and trained them to act aggressively towards perceived intruders (dogs don’t necessarily know whether or not you’ve been invited into their space by their owners). I can assure you that had that junk yard owner had Dobermans, Shepherds or Rottweilers, you’d have been in the same “danger” from attack as with a Pit Bull.
I’m sorry you were bitten and I’m glad you’re ok. But your story doesn’t actually dispute any of the claims made here, ie; that Pit Bulls are no more inherently dangerous than any other breed of dog that is trained to be aggressive or which have been mistreated.
During your lawsuit, did you get the papers on the “Pit Bulls”? I’ve seen a lot of “Pit Bulls” with a whole lot of mixture in them–some that had no terrier at all!
I’m just curious how you know they were actually Pit Bulls.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Falcon *
**
While I grew up, I saw her: 1) scare off a full size German Shepherd who was following me home from the bus stop. (Wasn’t attacking me, but it was too close to HER human, I suppose.) 2) Attack a full size rottweiler that the neighbors across the street owned. The rottweiler got the worst of it. (And DeskMonkey? Once my dog got into the fight, I could NOT control her.) **
[QUOTE]
Well, no offense, but it sounds like that dog had behavior and aggression problems.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Falcon *
**
My dog also bit two people. This was due to them being dumbasses. If a dog is barking, and the owner asks to to wait a minute whil she puts the dog in her cage, DON’T put your bare leg in the damn door!*
[QUOTE]
I don’t really think you can blame someone else for being bitten by dogs that you’re supposed to be controlling. I think you may have some alpha issues with your pup. I looked up Cairn Terriers (very cute, by the way!) and a breeder had this to say about such behavior:
http://members.tripod.com/~Jerrier/behavior.html
[quote]
**
Inappropriate Protectiveness and Aggression:
If your dog is protective of you, your family, and your property in any way, this behavior needs to be controlled lest your dog become unmanageable and aggressive. It is your responsibility, as an owner to insure that doesn’t happen. The way to do this is just like the way we dealt with barking. Part of your dog’s job is to warn you of intruders, but your job is to determine whether or not that intruder is a threat.
And if you have properly established your role as alpha, your dog should defer to your judgment. When your dog alerts you to an intruder, praise him, and then tell him “Enough” and that should be the end of it. If your dog does not quit, then you need to correct him and reinforce the idea that it is your decision. A hearty “no!” should suffice, and if not, an alpha rollover (as described by Jerrie, I think) would be appropriate here.
One common mistake people make when their dog is over-protective is to try to soothe him. They hold his collar and say “no,” and stroke the dog to calm him. This is sending mixed messages to your dog, because he will interpret the stroking as praise. It is important to be clear in your intentions.**
[quote]
I’m not saying you’re a bad dog owner or that your dog is out of control. I’m not picking a fight, I’m just telling you what I read. It seems like a lot of dogs can be aggressive at times, but I highly doubt (and hope) that your terrier could kill someone. That is the issue at hand. I think you got really lucky that the Rottweiler didn’t fight back. He must have been very well trained and handled.
wow, that’s a funky-looking reply! Sorry about that, must’ve been bad quoting or something!
Ummm… errr… at the risk of getting my head ripped off, I’d like to say the following:
-
I have no doubt, given what Cartoon described, that those dogs were trained to be vicious towards people.
-
I have no doubt that the guy who trained them that was was an asshole.
HOWEVER…
If your dog ever attacks someone in the manner described by Cartoon, the appropriate response is to *instantly * become * extremely * aggressive with your dog yourself, and that includes, in situation like this, hurting it. This particular dog had been trained to attack, in all probability, so it was probably getting mixed signals. But in general, the correct response to behavior like that would in fact be something along the lines of pounding it in the head (not in the nose or eyes). You have to let your dog know, without a shred of uncertainty, that aggression will not be tolerated, and that he will get a butt kicking if he is aggressive. (This is, by the way, the only time I approve of buttkicking. You don’t kick your dog’s butt under * any other circumstance * - there are more effective ways to deal with other unwelcome behaviors. But aggression must be met with greater aggression. It is the way of the pack.)
You have to think like your dog and act like your dog if you hope to control your dog. The role we play in their lives is to be the Alpha leaders of their packs, even if it is just a pack of two. And in dog/wolf packs, unacceptable behavior is treated with aggression. And in the case of violent behavior, it must be stopped immediately. I am not recommending abusing your dog if they get a little cranky, but I’m saying that whacking your dog in the head is not inappropriate if your dog bites someone.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by oldscratch *
**
[li]2. Pit Bulls do not attack without warning **[/li][/QUOTE]
So, don’t fucking accuse me of mis-quoting Oldscratch one BIT. That’s what he wrote, that’s what I addressed in my posting up there. Period. My posting addressed his statement that Pit Bulls do not attack without warning. Unless the assumtpion is that what I’ve said is a complete fabrication, he simply has to admit he’s wrong.
I’m waiting.
Cartooniverse
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Stoid *
**
[QUOTE You have to think like your dog and act like your dog if you hope to control your dog. The role we play in their lives is to be the Alpha leaders of their packs, even if it is just a pack of two. And in dog/wolf packs, unacceptable behavior is treated with aggression. And in the case of violent behavior, it must be stopped immediately. I am not recommending abusing your dog if they get a little cranky, but I’m saying that whacking your dog in the head is not inappropriate if your dog bites someone. **[/QUOTE]
Not for nothing, but humans do not need to conduct themselves in this century ( or the last, to be very precise ) with the inner mental machinations of a fucking attack dog FOREMOST in their minds at all times. Most of us actually walk into a store, or onto a junkyard lot, and make our purchase, never threaten someone, and walk out. Now, I know this must just sound SO FUCKING IRRESPONSIBLE to those of you who’ve so clearly placed respect for the delicate mental and emotional states of canines far above the safety of humans. Oh well.
I hear CBS is starting shooting on “K-9 Fantasy Isle” in March. Might be a good time to scamper down there with Thor, or Adolph, or Meat, or whateverthefuck your displaced excuse for empowerment is, and see if you can spend a few months on an island where Alpha dogs rule, and humans pay the awful price for not understanding canine psychology.
But on this planet, and in this country ( and, I know it’s a real heartbreaker for some of ya ) you have zero fucking right to expect anyone outside of canine lovers and breeders to predicate ANY behavior- in PUBLIC on what a dog might or might not do. I am not at all regarding private property in this, I’m well aware of how territoriality works. Belive me. That wasn’t my only attack. I’m talking about a normal commercial public area.
And, as I said up there, I quoted Oldscratch accurately. That is indeed exactly what he said, and it is indeed exactly what I disproved.
Cartooniverse
Desk -
So even though I told the person my dog bit to WAIT until I calmed my dog down before entering my house, it’s MY fault they ignored my instructions? I don’t think so.
Second, the way my dog scared off hte German shepherd was to come TEARING down our driveway barking. Not snarling, not showing teeth. Barking. The shepherd took one look and ran off. Finally, the rottie was NOT trained. At all. I know the people that owned him. They weren’t mean to the dog, but they also didn’t train him at all. The only reason my dog wasn’t hurt was because they were under a car, and she could manuver better.
The point I was making was that ANY dog can be agressive. Rottie, terrier, pit bull…it depends on the owner.
Cartoon, calm down, ok?
2 things:
What I wrote was directed * specificially at the ** owner ** of the dog* ** not ** the victim. Read it carefully, I was saying that owner had responded appropriately.
The other thing is, I was attacked by a pit bull only yesterday, and myself said in this very thread that it came without warning of any kind.
So I’m not giving you shit, ok? I’m in the same boat!