Animal Cruelty on the SDMB, a tale of lies and attempted murder

The BBQ Pit
81

A few people who have had personal experience of dog attacks have felt that comments such as “dogs don’t attack without warning” imply that they have lied about their experiences.

I think it’s pertinent to clarify that dominant aggressive dogs always display signs of dominant aggression (staring, food aggression, excessive territoriality, other dog aggression, pushiness, etc) which should be recognised by their owners as such and should be dealt with long before the dog has a chance to harm man or beast.

Us doggy types are suggesting that these warning signals have not been recognised and dealt with by the owners involved, not that the dog did not give the victim warning immediately prior to the attack.

FWIW, the majority of serious dog bites occur on the dog’s territory and the victim is someone known to the dog (very often a child); from memory they usually occur in the afternoon and most often while the dog is being played with or is eating. Play and food are two areas in which it is absolutely irresponsible to tolerate alpha behaviour from a dog. Unfortunately, many owners establish a bad pattern in these areas during puppyhood which is difficult to correct as the dog matures. Dogs are not aware of their increasing size and cannot be expected to know that behaviour which was tolerated or encouraged when they were 3 months old is not acceptable in an adult dog. The only behaviour which should be tolerated/encouraged in puppies is the behaviour which you want that puppy to exhibit when it is fully grown.

A snappy, snarly puppy will not simply outgrow its aggressive tendencies. It needs active intervention on the owner’s part to correct this kind of behaviour immediately, not denial of the fact that such behaviour exists or tolerance of that behaviour until the dog is mature and actually hurts someone.

So no, we are not saying that people who have been attacked are lying when they say they were attacked without warning -what we are saying is that the dog’s owner almost certainly had warning signs regarding the dog’s tendency towards aggression and either failed to recognise those signs or failed to act on them.

82

In fact, I did just that. Not only have you ALSO provided us with sites that were loaded with data, some of it defeated your theory. Your CDC site? The one that stated that Pit Bulls were responsible for SLIGHTLY over TWICE as many attacks as the next breed cited in the time studied? Boy, that sure did support your theory huh? They’re the #1 attacker, according to the site you provided. And, thanks for that data!!

I’ve provided an opposing point of view. In view of the Moderators’ requests that the Boards not be saturated with needless text, I felt that providing the hyperlinks was more appropriate than re-writing the text found there. We’re all a pretty literate bunch here- I’ll give the Teeming Millions credit for knowing how to click, and read through and chose what to believe or not. Just as I did with the links you provided in your O.P. ( Well, immediately below the O.P. )

Asking / telling me to shut the F up is kind of a waste of time. Who died and annointed you Editor? My sites do indeed support my belief that those breeds discussed, and specifically Pit Bulls, are indeed very dangerous. I felt as though I provided ample proof. But then, as I said, the Law is what it is. Unless changed by an act of State Congress, the Laws cited stand. Like them or not.

I somehow managed to prove my point without personally attacking anyone.

Oh, and speaking of literacy, the screenname is spelled as follows :

Cartooniverse

83

It seems to me that the entire point of your initial and subsequent replies here was to dispute the claim by oldscratch that “2. Pit Bulls do not attack without warning.”

As you stated:

However, you have not provided one single bit of evidence to disprove his claim at all. You admitted that you were turning to leave when the Pit Bull you encountered came after you. It is entirely likely, therefore, that you simply missed the signals warning you that the attack was imminent. Or, it is even quite probable that you aren’t aware of what some of those warning signs are.

You seem to be hell bent on proving that Pit Bulls are a menace, yet even the links you provided do not single Pit Bulls out as the only dogs that can act aggressively. This site you linked to, [The dogs most likely to bite](http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html#The dogs most likely to bite), TEN different breeds are listed, not just Pit Bulls

In addition, it also states (underlining mine):

[quote]
In all fairness, however, it must be noted that respected dog experts believe:
[ul]
[li]Any dog, treated harshly or trained to attack, may bite a person. Any dog can be turned into a dangerous dog. The owner is responsible, not the breed, and not the dog.[/li]
[li]Any individual dog may be a good, loving pet, even though its breed is considered to be likely to bite. A responsible owner can win the love and respect of a dog, no matter its breed. One cannot look at an individual dog, recognize its breed, and then state whether or not it is going to attack.[/ul][/li][/quote]

Not only that, but the link to the New York State One Bite Dog Law has the following to say (underlining mine):

I guess the bottom line is, if you’re trying to make a point it might be a good idea to carefully read the sites you’re using to back up whatever it is you think you’re trying to prove.

84

I could not agree more, Reprise. So, vitriolic namecalling left to those best suited, let me ask then- how does one arm one’s self and one’s children? I’m not taking a cheap shot here, I don’t mean “arm”- I mean, how do you know when walking down the sidewalk what is about to happen? Which owner with dog on leash has ignored those important warning signs to which you’ve referred? Am I responsible for knowing that every owner within bite-shot ( new word. For $ 5.00 you can use it) has properly and appropriately trained their dog? Sadly, as I showed in one of the cites, in New York State that is exactly where the burden lies. Upon the victim.

Cartooniverse

85

I would just like to throw in a little anecdote. I know that we can’t rely on this sort of thing as fact and all that, but for what it’s worth:

When I was about 7 years old, I got a dog for Christmas. I don’t know why, but my mom got me a 2 year old American Pit Bull Terrier. She was already fixed, and her previous owners were this little old couple from our neighborhood. Anyway, I loved this dog, and we had quite a time up until I was 14 and she had to be euthanised after getting hit by a car. I was very sad: she was my dog.

The point is that I was a stupid kid when I got her. I wasn’t some highly trained expert owner. I used to wrestle with her in the back yard, chase her around the park, play with a chew toy with her (well, she would chew on it, I would just try to take it away from her. You know how you do with a dog? Like tug-o-war? Like that) and all kinds of fun stuff. I had to keep her on a short leash around the other neighborhood dogs, but other than that everything was cool. She never once bit me, or even snapped at me. She never even snarled at me, not really anyway. We used to play all the time but she never hurt me. And I was just a stupid kid.

I loved that dog, and then she died. She died at the tale end of the late 80’s anti-Pit Bull bullshit. Some asshole relative said “It’s probably just as well, a Pit Bull’s just ticking time-bomb, anyway.” I think I was grounded for a month for telling one of my uncles to “shut the fuck up” because they “didn’t know what the fuck they’re talking about” or some such as that.
So I did some research, and was able to find out that the best possible breed I could have had as a kid was an American Pit Bull Terrier.
I asked my mom why she got me a Pit Bull. She said that when she decided to get me a dog, she did her homework. She went and talked to a couple of veterinarians and they both told her to get an APBT, and she also talked to a friend of hers who owns and operates a kennel and she said the same thing: Get an American Pit Bull Terrier.

If Pit Bulls were the voracious man-eating monsters that some people seem to think they are, I sure as hell would not be here today, since I used to rough-house with one in my back yard on a regular basis when I was but a wee one.

The things that dog would put up with were amazing. I think a person would have mauled me if I did similar things to him! Please note that I never abused my dog, but as a kid I used to do childish things. I would pull on her ears, pull her tail, hold her leg and so on. She never once bit me. The worst I got was a lick on my hand. Then my mom saw me doing this and pulled MY ear, and then asked me if I liked it. I said no, and she replied
“So do you think that your dog likes it?”
Of course not, I thought, so I never did it again.

When I own a house with yard worthy of a dog, I will own another American Pit Bull Terrier.

86

Simultaneous posts, or I would have responded to this post as well as the other one at the same time. Sorry about that.

Indeed, I don’t need to prove it at all. I was attacked. Point of fact. And, as you just said here, " I simply missed the signals warning me that attack was imminent". For those of us out there who forgot to take their Dr. Doolittle pills this month ( and, this is a point you seem to be unable to refute, since it’s true), since when it is the responsibility of the population at large to decypher the mental state of each animal it comes upon? And, my cites were more than adequate. I never said Pit Bulls were the ONLY dog that attacks. That would be completely ludicrous. No, rather I showed that they have quite a taste for people. In fact, Oldscratch’s offerings of cites proved that as well, if not better, than mine did. But then, I’ve already passed on my thanks to him for providing that CDC cite.
To be honest, I did have to go over my behavior in that trailer in some gruesome detail at the time. Like it doesn’t show, I’m terrified of large dogs, having already been attacked twice in my life previous to the Pit Bull. So, as I read the CDC cite and the suggestions on what NOT to do when around an agitated dog, I have to say that the only thing I probably did is gesture with a hand. I never sat down, and surely never looked into the dog’s eyes/face.Didn’t raise my voice or approach it’s owner. I knew enought to keep my voice level. But, I bet I did gesture at some point. If that was the holy sin I committed, and got what I deserved, well then woe to every small child who has the poor luck to live with a dog who’s having a bad day.
I never said that only Pit Bulls are dangerous, did I? All I did is refute the allegation that they never attack without provocation or warning. I don’t need a cite to prove that. All I need is the scar tissue. And that, I’ve got.

Cartooniverse

87

Sometimes, just sometimes, I think that people who walk about with their head in the clouds, aloof to their surroundings…well, they deserve what happens to them.

Cartooniverse, if you address traffic the way you have demonstrated yourself to address dogs, you will soon be run over by a bus. Your brains will be squot out onto the street, through your asshole (closest possible exit), and a single unladen swallow will fly away with them to build a small, drafty nest.

88

YES, YOU DO. If you are attempting to counter a statement made by someone else, it is up to you to come up with the evidence refuting said statement.

First of all, your nasty sarcasm is unnecessary. Secondly, where did I, or anyone else for that matter, ever state or imply that it’s your responsibility to decipher every animal on the planet’s mental state? You did the best you could and still got bitten. I don’t think anyone here is trying to say that it’s your fault. It’s the dog owner’s fault, plain and simple. He should have restrained his dog when a customer was on the premises. Period. But what you still haven’t done is to properly dispute the claim that Pit Bulls don’t attack without warning.

What’s at issue here is the simple fact that you did, indeed, miss the warning signs, NOT that you were responsible because you missed them.

Why can’t you just accept that?

89

So, umm, exactly what ARe the warning signs (which should be obvious) that a Pit bull is going to attack? I used to walk a freinds dog- he was quite big, and was a mastiff/austrialian/pit bull wierd cross. I walked him by some guys yard- which had a 4 foot fence. 2PB “mutts” were there- and when they saw “Khan”- the just stiffened up, and focused on him. The owner came out & said- “better watch out- that means they are going to attack, and they can get over that fence”. (OK, we all agree, that Dog owner was “bad”, right?). However, rather than doing anything aggresive, “Khan” started making “it’s dinner, i wanna eat it” noises, which confused & (seemingly)frightened the PB’s- not to mention the owner was 'calling them off". I have seen that “warning” before in a PB- and IMHO- it is no “warning” at all, for any practical purposes. When my dogs wanted to “warn”- they would growl, snarl , then snap- which is rather easy to figure out.

90

Hoooo, doggies…
it’s like a rabid pack of pit bulls in here…:smiley:
I used to raise pits. Had lots of 'em. Knew lots of others.
Did all kinds of research on 'em at the time. Can’t cite it here- many moons ago. But I can give the gist of said research, and relate my fair amount of personal experience, as both a breeder of pits and lifelong dog owner (not necessarily pits- currently chow crosses).
What I read and have seen pictorially sez that pits are actually not an american breed, per se, and the breed (or progenitors thereof) has been around far, far longer than 100 years.
Pit Bulls, when they attack, can inflict immense damage. So can Blue Heelers, Collies, (this was the big thing when I was little- all types of Collies, ‘specially those little fuckers…) Dobies, Shepherds, Chows, Mastiffs, Bull Mastiffs, Akitas, St. Bernards, Great Danes, Horses, Bulls, many types of sharks, Orcae (sp?), Elk, Moose, Raccons and Bad People. Oh, yeah, and Labs and oddly enough, Setters and those one kind of dogs, usually black and tan, curlly hair, looking something like a Black and tan poodle…Airdales, maybe.
The first pit I ever saw was this fairly large dog that later had to be put down- because in the trailer court where he lived, several owners let their dogs run loose and these dogs formed a kind of pack, with this big-ass Dobie as the leader. Well, they would come around and just harangue Major, the Pit of whom I speak. He was cranky anyway, he was getting old and had a foot fungus on all feet that they couldn’t get rid of and was painful.
Till one day, they came around and started sniping at him through the fence, he climbed it and tore out after the Dobie- he caught him and he pretty much pulled the hide off the Dobie- they had to put that dog down. So my buddy had to put Maj down, for (in effect) killing the Dobie.
Here’s the deal- all his life, except for the last few months when the infection was really affecting his mood, my buddy and his wife used Maj to baysit the kids if they had to go outside for a bit to work on a car, hang out the laundry, or cook dinner, clean house, etc. That dog was taught to keep those 3 kids in the living room, where they couldn’t get into anything that would hurt them. He did a fantastic job- I watched when they first told me- I didn’t believe them. But there it was- the littlest tugged on his ears, pulled his lips, generally harassed the dog. When he had had enough, he would just put a paw over the kid and pin him to the floor. He’d hold him there for a few seconds, then let him up. If one of the kids wandered toward the kitchen, Maj just kind of ‘herded’ him or her back into the space of the living room. Never so much as a raised lip or the tiniest of growls. This even when he had the foot infection- it was only in the last few months of his life when it got really bad that they stopped this practice.
My own dogs were all very good around kids. I had little ones at the time and made sure of it. I will unequivocably state that they were the best kid dogs I’ve ever had. My own littlest used to steal the dogs’ bones out of their mouths, jsut cause he was contrary (I knew it when he was born- I could just tell and his name is Conor- Con for short, Contrary for descriptive. Conoco for goofy, and Convict when he’s been particularly Contrary…but I circumnavigate…). The dogs would tug on the bones to keep them, but not so hard that this little 3 yr old boy didn’t get them away from the dogs. He also did all the ear tugging, lip pulling, tail pulling etc. They jsut moved. That’s all. Ever.
Same dogs- good around every one they met, except for three people, all of whom I had bad blood with. I never taught them that consciously, I just figure they picked up on my tension. They never attacked though, although they did back these people up a number of times.
Pits come in all sizes, they are not necessarily ‘hulking monsters’ or whatever they were referred to in one of the above posts. True Pits were never bred for looks, size or conformation, with the exception of the Red Nose. The only thing they were bred for, is gameness. The ability and willingness to fight. Not viciousness. Gameness.
I don’t see the logic of the ‘human aggression’ having been bred out of them, as it’s incompatible somehow with ‘dog aggression’. I have been attacked by a Pit, recently. I have some shiny scars on my face to prove it. There were warning signs, I just was over-confident with the dog, and didn’t take them as such. And the way I was playing with him, he was uncomfortable with. The attack was my fault. And instead of my face being ripped off, there are only the little scars. He was definitely in a position to rip my face off. But he didn’t.
Doesn’t mean I’m friends with the dog now. They got rid of him, he bit someone else too. Let me tell you about the owners- They never give attention to the dogs, except to yell at them. Why are they yelling at them? Because the dogs don’t mind, bark incessantly, and run every chance they get. Why is this? Because the only attention they ever get is to be yelled at. Never taken for a walk, never taken for a ride, I have never even seen them pet the dogs, or even speak to them in a nice voice- ever. Still, the pit was friendly with me, until I made him nervous. The other dog, a Spaniel, won’t come near me. Doesn’t ever get used to the fact that I’m there.
My dog, one of them, has eaten this Pit for breakfast several times, even though the Pit outweighs him by at least 10-13 pounds (best guess of a guy who’s handled lots of dogs…) and is a little older. My dog is a chow/shepherd/unknown cross. Makes a beeline every chance he gets for this pit. And rips him up, if I don’t get there in time. (Sorry for the present tense- they gave the dog away a couple of months ago…this happened, instead of happens…)
Which brings me to my next item: I have had occasion to break up many fights, often between chows and pits. For quite a while, while I was raising Pits, I had neighbors who had chow crosses and chows. They fought lots twixt themselves, and with my dogs. I got a technique down with my arms, and hell yeah, I whacked them on the noses. In my experience, whacking one of these types of dogs on the head while they’re fighting is about the most stupid, ignorant, ineffectual thing one can do, and all the stories of people trying to stop a fight or attack by this method, to my mind, only underscore the number of ignorant owners who have no business having any of these types of dogs. Or

breeding these types of dogs, or generally having anytihng to do with these types of dogs. It’s kinda like the many (not all) S.A. owners of SUVs discussed in another thread in this forum- people not knowing their limits, being ignorant of their ignorance ((o, that’s beautiful- it’s so…intrinsic, somehow…)), and hurting/inconveniencing/killing other people when they (S.A. owners) get in over their heads and don’t know, or don’t care.
Have I seen dogs attack w/o warning? yup. It’s been rare, but I’ve seen it. And when it was my dog, I noticed the circumstances under which it happened, and was able to head off those types of circumstances afterwards. No more out-of-the-blue attacks.
And this is why: Dogs, contrary to most peoples seeming level of knowledge and stated opinions about them, have a level of intelligence such that they are not the automotons many people seem to think they are, or should be. Dogs have likes, and dislikes. They can carry grudges. They can and do formulate opinions (what else is a like or dislike?).
Point is, you can piss them off. And they might be not so happy that day, or kinda scared of the situation, whatever, and snap.
They have way more hold-back than a human for this type of activity, but it does happen. I say with dogs in general, I don’t single out Pits here.
Another aspect of this dogs-having-their-own-minds deal that causes trouble is weak-minded, undisciplined owners. If you are one of these people, you are going to have problems with your dog. If it’s a type of breed that can inflict serious damage to a human, then you (or someone else) are possibly in for that damage. Not always, but the stories I hear of dogs turning have only involved one or more of 3 factors: A weak-minded, inconsistent owner, a cruel owner (or cruel other) or a sick dog. I mean the bigger attacks. The other ones, types of which have been mentioned in this thread, are not necessarily attacks, but more like ‘knock it the fuck off’ dog style- a quick attack, usually only a snap or two. This doesn’t mean that people, especially children don’t sometimes get badly hurt in these short attacks. People don’t have loose skin and a nice wall of fur to minimize damage from such a rebuke. But I will crystallize what I was saying above- a dog is not an automoton- learn this if you have one. They will sometimes snap if they don’t like what is happening in their immediate vicinity. To them, this is a natural ‘back off!’. When done to other dogs, it causes no lasting damage. It can cause serious harm to a human, but dogs do not realize this. So be aware of this, and be a little alert to it if you have a dog. It’s the same thing as say, a co-worker being in a bad mood and biting your head off at the smallest offense. Dogs use their teeth though. Duh…
The other type of attack, where the object is serious mayhem/death to the opponent, I have never seen happen without warning. Never.
Enough. (well, sort of…:))
In my experience, Pits are at leaast as amiable as any other breed, and most of the time, more so, if raised properly.
Dogs, in general, will snap at times. Not all dogs, but not jsut the members of a specific breed or two, either.
When it is a serious attack, i have never seen it come without warning. Although I have seen plenty of warning signs missed by people, and have even missed them myself. I LEARNED…
People, so much more than dogs it’s not even comparable, are the problem in my experience. I don’t exempt myself from that statement. I’m better now…
Often times, what is being called a pit or pit cross, isn’t even close to having ANY pit bull terrier in it. I have seen this time and time again. As have I seen time and time again actual Pits labeled as another breed.
There is something I haven’t seen mentioned- In pit circles, it goes like this: way back in the early part of this century on back into the previous and even before, pit fighting was such a popular sport that many ‘swells’ of the times decided to acquire their own dogs. Usually for reasons of ego. Kind of like a rich feller owning a sports team or thouroughbred, who doesn’t have anything to do with said team or horse except as publicity…
Anyway, these dogs had to be renamed, as it was uncouth for these swells to have anything to do with pitfights, so they got their dogs (collective) registered in the AKC as American Staffordshire Terriers, the name coming from a mistaken notion of the dogs’ origins. ‘Staffs’ as they came to be called, were not bred for gameness, but for these guys’ mistaken idea of gameness, which was often…viciousness. And looks- One year a bulky dog was in, the next year a leaner, more whip-like dog was the thing to have, the next year, jaws that would dwarf a tyrannosaurous rex was the hot item. Temperment kind of went out the window. Not a good thing. But they can still be worked with. My experience tells me that.
Thanks
inor

91

What about Petey from the Little Rascals? What a sweetheart!
I adore dogs, but I was wondering about the “There are no bad dogs only bad owners” mantra. Is it really impossible for a dog to be raised by good owners and still have a less than ideal disposition? I don’t know I’m only asking…

92

not trying to be mean or anyting, but

Those are pretty good warning signs. They aren’t given by some formula…

93

King Rat (james clavell fan i bet…:))
in my experience, no, it’s not impossible for good owners to raise a poopy-assed dog. I can’t say it’s been common though…
and they were poopy-assed, cranky, whatever, not death-dealing monsters of destruction…

94

With dogs you also have to take into account that they are very sensitive to body language, and pick up on things that most people would miss. I too have seen dogs that were sweet with nearly everyone start growling at somebody who the owner did not like or who was nervous - in the first case, the dog basically interprets the body language of the owner as saying ‘This is a bad person’ and reacts accordingly. In the second case, the dog is usually just being protective, anyone who has seen a fight knows that people who are about to attack show a lot of the same mannerisms as a nervous person, probably because they are nervous.

A combination of the two may have led to the junk-yard office attack. The owner may have decided at first glance that they didn’t like the customer for whatever reason (long hair, wrong color, scared around dogs, whatever) and the person stated they were extremely aware of the presence of the pit bull, waiting until the owner said it was OK to come in. The dog doesn’t understand language, they just pick up on what THEY know, body language.

I’ve never been bitten by a dog, and I have gone up to and petted dogs that the owners warned would bite - yeah, it’s kinda dumb, but I grew up around dogs and am confident around them, and if I was attacked I know how to incapacitate a dog and I’m pretty sure I would win. The dogs can see I’m not afraid, that I am just wanting to ‘say hello’, and don’t have a reason to bite. My size may have something to do with it as well.

95

It’s certainly not impossible - a dog’s basic temperament is whatever it is born with. Some dogs are just naturally easy-going and others aren’t. Good ownership involves recognising your dog’s natural disposition, establishing yourself as boss, and maintaining an awareness of any change. Some dogs which are fairly easy-going during puppyhood develop dominance issues as they mature (not unlike adolescent humans). Those issues need to be handled as they arise.

While intractable dogs are fairly rare (good breeders tend not to breed from or make available for sale dogs with unstable temperaments), part of responsible ownership involves recognising when there is nothing you more you can do to make your dog a functional part of society and either surrendering your dog to someone who can do that or having your dog put down. It’s a heartbreaking decision to make, but there are times when it is the only responsible course of action available.

96

Now that I have some time oldscratch I’m going to expose your BS for what it is for the benefit of the feeble minded. If we’re supposed to be fighting ignorance, you should keep quite and listen.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by oldscratch *
Why does this thread exist? It exists for three reasons…
[ul]
[li]2, Some of the attitudes expressed in that thread mentally and physically disgusted me. The proper place to deal with ‘Possum fucking worm brained sons of bitches like that is the pit.[/li][/quote]

It seems to me, your argument is so weak, you needed a forum where profanity and character assasination are permitted to bolster your argument, among like minded. You didn’t have the courage or the decency to provide the objects of your slander a link to your to your extensive rant.

[quote]
oldscratch reveals his stupidity
[li]3, Many people don’t read GD with great frequency, they asked me to place this here so it will be more noticeable, and so that they too can give these lovely people the attention they deserve.[/li][/quote]

Oh gee! Were your friends incapable of serious debate like you in GD. I’m going to give your “friends” more credit than that.

Everyone who assumes that oldscratch has truthfully represented anyone in SD advocating indiscriminate euthanasea please read the original thread. Two poster alluded to it but both settled for sterilization among other measures.

I await with baited breath

You dismiss my evidence from a retired professor on the basis of Badtz’s opinion? What credentials does Badtz have? Good argument oldscratch :rolleyes:. Now we really know why this debate is no longer in GD. This comment should in no way be interpreted as if I believe Badtz’s opinion is worth any less than anyone else here.

Really, I don’t think the link was ever made other than as a possible precurser, and that point wa not ever really considered worthy of debate in the original thread

Oh if only this were true, then we wouldn’t be arguing would we?

No one is arguing here. I know Pit Bulls have great temperament. That is part of the problem. Often when an attack occurs, it comes as a complete surprise.The passing rate of 81.7% is interesting. But the manner in which you present this statistic is completely meaningless. Mind explaining 81.7% of what?, and what is a passing mark. :smiley:

Well I think you are making an unsubstatiated statement. The only way heh. How did we ever manage before without the ATTS.

Of course, notwithstanding your characterization of bb postings and statistics which refute your claims, your opponents focus primarily onprobabilityof negative behaviour based on the past history of the breed.

And don’t forget properly bred. A lot of if properly don’t you think.

Are you suggesting that for some other breeds, temperament testing is irrelevant? Which breeds are you talking about?

What should we do with all those dogs owned by so so owners?

I doubt you’ll see many APBTs on the force. They’ll have to unseat the far moreintelligent German Shepherd. The German Shepherd requires less than 5 repititions to understand a new command. The Staffordshire Bull Terrier requires 25 to 40 repititions. No budget conscious police department is going to deliberately recruit pit bulls.

Oh, In 1950,1960,and 1970, show me one city that felt it neccessary to have a breed specific bi-law. :smiley:

Several problems here.** No need to address the validity of comparing APBTs to black human males.** Disgusting. On a point of honesty, as mentioned previously, no one here believes the answer is kill all of them. Oldscratch constantly likes to throw out this red herring.

Like so many incidents of that type, there is no police report. So bite me!

I’m sorry if you can’t follow the reasoning or the facts. You should be more specific as to what issues I brought up that were not related to the safety of the public with respect to pit bulls.

I never saw a pit bull until I was in my 20’s, during the 1970’s. Pit Bull popularity as a house pet is recent. Are you suggesting that the character of Pit Bulls suddenly changed in the 80’s. Sorry, to say the APBT has been extremely popular for a century is revisionist history.

I should hope so. At 2% of the population, I would have expected that 98% of people killed by dogs are killed by breeds other than pit bulls. Right now its 70% as your CDC site attests.

The fact that the Pit Bull “lock jaw” is completely voluntary does nothing to improve the endearing status of the APBT.

According to your logic, the parents of the school children should have the right to sue your parents who raised an idiot who didn’t know how to drive a car Did they lock you up in your room? Did they beat you?

Actually, your own CDC cite attests to your lie. German Shepherds are not second, but a distant third, and register only because of the extreme numbers. German Shepherds make up 6% of the dog population as opposed to 2% for the APBT. Where pure bred APBTs account for 30%(not 25%)of deaths, German Shepherds account for 9.5% of deaths. If all dogs were APBTs, there would be 3000 deaths from the Pit Bull from 79 to 96,or 167 deaths/year.If all dogs were German Shepards,there would be 317 deaths over the same period or
18 deaths per year. The average dog resulted in 199 deaths over the same period, or 11 deaths per year.

To Repeat if all dogs were:
Pit Bulls…167 deaths per year in America
German Shepherd… 18 deaths per year in America
Average dog… 11 deaths per year in America

One should leave emotion behind when searching for the truth. The facts are indisputable, and the level of emotion favouring the APBT will do nothing to prevent the horrible maimings and deaths children face these days at the hands of dogs that are bred for fighting and aggression. Nothing you’ve spouted oldscratch suggests to me that you have some hope to offer the kids of the future. After all 11 deaths a year and I don’t know how many maimings, appear not worthy of any serious political effort or ink on your part to alleviate.

97

The least you could do andros is get your facts right. Typhoid Mary just had a communicable disease, and Rasputin is known for his prodigious sexual appetite, not violence!

98

cartooniverse:

I think you’re misinterpreting the facts. The CDC figures implicate pit bulls in a disproportionate number of fatal attacks, not overall attacks. That may sound like ridiculous hair-splitting until you consider that fatal attacks account for only .00001% of all dog attacks, and that the AVMA does not consider fatal attacks to be an accurate measure of a breed’s likelihood to attack humans. The conclusion to the report that I linked to in my earlier post states that:

And the dog-bite-law website you provided contains a link to this report, which suggests that German Shepherds and Chow Chows are the breeds most likely to bite humans. So there doesn’t appear to be any evidence (other than the anecdotal kind) that pit bulls are more likely to attack humans than any other breed of dog. In fact, based on their Canine Temperament test scores, they are less likely than most other breeds to attack.

And this point has already been made by others, but I would submit that, from a dog’s point of view (which is what we are apparently trying to divine here), there is no such thing as an unprovoked attack. The dog that bit you probably did so for reasons that were perfectly clear to him/her. That doesn’t mean that the attack was your fault, it means that the dog’s owner should have known better than to let you walk into harm’s way.

99

Give your head a shake. I’ve been bitten twice, and both dogs were still alive years later. They don’t bother me! It’s the dogs which are intent on killing when they attack that are of concern. Its not the likelyhood of attack that is the problem, it the likelyhood of a horrible death.

100

Just have to say that ‘Nazi Devil Dogs’ would a great punk band name, with ‘Quite the grouchy bitch’ being a cool album title.

I’ll go away now.