Grienspace, why do you keep bringing up that he is a ‘retired professor’? That might have some bearing if he was a professor in a field relevent to the topic, but he’s not - he was a physics professor. My opinions had little to do with my refutation, I think what the OP is referring to is the flaws in the way he manipulated statistics.
grienspace:
Yeah, making fun of the username is always a good debate tactic. And it’s not headshook (which you seem to be playing off of), it’s headshok. It’s a mountain-biking reference. Anyway…
Well, you’ll have to take that up with the AVMA and the CDC, I guess. Sixty-six pit-bull-related deaths from 1979-1998 versus 500,000 to 800,000 dog attacks requiring medical treatment per year makes the likelihood of a horrible death less of a public health problem than the likelihood of maiming or hospitalization, if you ask me. I haven’t seen any evidence that demonstrates that pit bulls are more likely to attack people than any other breed. So based on that, I don’t think that calls for pit-bull-specific legislation are justified. And the raw fatality numbers are somewhat suspect and subject to misinterpretation, which is covered in the report I linked to in my first post to the thread. You did read the report, didn’t you?
Sorry Badtz, I couldn’t find any basis for concluding a flawed argument. The man was a respected scientist.
No, because my computer warned me that it wasn’t a secure. The data presented was crystal clear, however, and if I have misrepresented the facts as they were presented, be sure to tell me.
Many “pitbulls” are bred to be “agressive.”
Can anyone seriously claim that poodles or labs kill as much?
You can be respected in your field, and still have an agenda and/or distort facts and statistics to make your point. Take Michael Denton, for instance…
BTW, nobody seems to be disputing that pit bulls have bitten and killed more people than average. What people are trying to say is that there is no evidence that these statistics show that pit bulls, as a breed, are naturally more vicious. Multiple explanations have been given, i.e. the fact that many people who get pit bulls do not raise them properly, that the warnings they give are different from what most breeds do before they attack, etc. On one side we have experts, people who work with dogs and know them, on the other we have people providing anecdotes and drawing unsupportable conclusions from already shakey statistics, ignoring disclaimers in the pages they link to.
Thing is, if some idiots are convinced that it’s possible for a breed of dog is inherently vicious and should be destroyed, despite all the evidence to the contrary, nobody is going to be able to convince them otherwise, just as you can’t convince a racist that blacks are not born more likely to commit crimes.
This is amazing. It’s been a long time since I’ve seen someone try so hard to hold ontop their predjudices in the face of evidence to the contrary.
Not speaking to Badtz experties or lack there of, but I give the opinion of a retired physics professor the same amount of consideration I would give the opinion of a retired housewife if the subject is dogs, not physics.
From your actions, I rather suspect that you’d be arguing whatever the truth was, defending your sacred cow to the death.
It’s perfectly clear to me that he was saying :
which is exactly what he said. Which one of these words do you not understand the meaning of? “Frequently” is the only one with more than two sylables.
Translation: “Cuz I said so. Neener neener!”
We finally agree on something.
Oh, that’s definitive. :rolleyes:
Heresay. And if I got 100 people together who had family members who died after pissing in a light socket, what
would that say about the safety of light sockets in general? Nothing, Skippy. Not one damn thing.
Yes, one should. Try it sometime.
OOOOHHH!!! We’re playing “Spot the Fallacy!!” I wanna play too!
grienspace:
Straighten me, cause I’m ready.
Ad hominem. No refutation.
Ad hominem. No refutation.
Ok, I’ll grat that a little. I don’t know that 'Scratch said anything about “indiscrminate” euthanasia, but yes, he was a little strident, and may have exaggerated slightly.
Argument from authority. No refutation.
Er, no. 'Scratch said in this thread’s OP that the misperceptions many people had about Pit Bull violence against humans was colored by their perceptions of PB agression against other animals. Since it was established in this thread, it is relevant. No refutation.
Rhetoric. That IS the topic of debate. No refutation.
Well, it’s not entirely meaningless, as he made a point of mentioning the source. Here’s a link to the American Temperament Test Society, Inc.
Opinion, and unfounded at that. You have established that you are disinclined to learn WHY 'Scratch believes that “Temperament testing is the only reliable way to find out how your dog will react.” No refutation.
Yes. Again, that’s the topic of debate.
No, he’s not. And rhetorical questions can never refute.
Request for citation and clarification. No refutation.
Opinion, rhetoric, assertion. No refutation without further explanation.
Anecdote.
Assertion.
Assertion. No refutation[sup]3[/sup].
False analogy.
Fine. I’m done.
As to Typhoid Mary:
She carried typhoid. Yes, it was tragic. But when faced with the evidence, she refused to believe it. Instead of staying in touch with the Health Department and avoiding food service, as she said she would, she instead took another name and worked as a cook in Sloane Maternity Hospital in Manhattan. In three months she had spread typhoid to 25 doctors, nurses, and staff memebers, killing 2 of them.
You’re right. It was ignorance and anger at work with Mary Mallon. But when you accuse others of not having their facts right, be sure not to oversimplify, hmm?
And to Grigory Yefimovich Novykh, “the debauched,” yes, he was sexually licentious. He was not known for murder, but for seduction, assauly, and rape. Oh, and manipulation of the royals, and the banishment of his political enemies.
Murder is not the only form of violence. An attmept to claim that Rasputin was simply a womanizer is a severe misrepresentation of the facts.
Big kiss.
Pit Bull…167 deaths per year
German Shepherd… 18
average dog… 11
Remember those numbers?
For all the crap I keep hearing, nobody has responded to these numbers. Are pit bull owners worse than German Shepherd owners? 
Thankyou** Andros,** I checked the site out, and guess what. Pit Bulls, Rottweillers, Shepherds and Dalmations all score near the same. A 12 minute test, 2 out of 3 referee decision. That is very comforting. An organization that is fighting breed(read Pit Bull)specific legislation hasn’t really addressed the serious problem of canine homocide potential.
Besides man, what other animal likes to kill their own species for the shear pleasure of it? I’m not talking about fighting for dominance.
Well, I apologize. Being called a Mother-F’ing little liar does somehow get my hackles up. So, if my sarcasm smacked a bit of anger, well heck. Live with it. I didn’t lie.
The simple fact is that I did NOT jump a fence, attack an owner of violate territory. I will freely admit that if there are warning signs as such, I must have missed them. After all, you may think very poorly of me, but who would subject themselves to such an attack on purpoise? Not I. Not after two previous attacks ( under totally different circumstances, or you’d think I might have LEARNED the warning signs).
So, I didn’t know the warning signs fully, I got attacked, I had it coming. Okay. Got it. Thanks.
Cartooniverse
Cartooniverse, no one is saying it’s your fault you were attacked. Shayna has said repeatedly that it was entirely the fault of the dog’s owner.
Cartooniverse, you don’t seem to get it.
NO ONE is saying you deserved to get bit, OR that it was your responsibility to avoid getting bit.
It was the OWNER’S responsibility. The dog did not “attack without warning”. Yes, YOU did not get a warning, the attack SEEMED unprovoked to YOU.
But the owner knew, or should have known, that his dog was likely to bite you. You were scared of the dog, and rightly so. The owner ENJOYED seeing you scared of his dog. And the dog, taking his cue from the owner, thought, “Owner want person scared. Me bite person.”
YOU did not provoke the attack. The OWNER provoked the attack. See the difference? The dog did not attack you unprovoked if the owner provoked the attack. The owner was a sadistic asshole who hates people. So his dogs are the same. But that same vicious dog who bit you in all probability WOULD HAVE BEEN A LOVING PET if it had been raised by a loving person instead of an asshole. The fault is not the breed of the dog, the fault is the environment of the dog.
No surprise. A dog raised by a vicious person will turn out vicious. And vicious people like Pit Bulls for various reasons. So we have lots of vicious pit bulls. Take the pit bull puppies away from the vicious people and all of the sudden, no more vicious pit bulls.
I agree that it may be too late to save many dogs, and vicious dogs should be euthanized. But the problem wasn’t their breed, it was their environment. I have pity for vicious dogs, because of what they could have been, but that doesn’t change the fact that we have no choice but to euthanize them. If I had my way the owners of these dogs would be euthanized alongside them.
Oh, neato cool. Someone else who is calling me a liar. Well, I must thank you for not resorting to 8th grade profanities in doing so.
So, you have here equated walking into a place of business, that was open to any one who wished to purchase something, with the patently unsafe act of urinating into a live electical circuit? Have a nice day. And, when your 4 year old child is mauled almost beyond recognition one day, you can gather enormous comfort in the fact that as he grows up, you can scream at him almost daily, castigating him for his incredibly ignorance in how he dealt with that poor confused mad and sad doggie. Stupid little imbcile, should have known better. Everyone should know better. Right? Young or old, dog fancier or novice. Everybody should just darned well know ** better**. Excellent !
Cartooniverse
No, he probably just wanted to call you a fucking moron.
After initially reading your story, I had sympathy for you. However, after your incessant whining, I wish you would shut the fuck up.
Were you scared of the dog that bit you? Yes? Then there’s your fucking warning. Should you have expected to be bitten? No. Was it your fault you were bitten? No. Whose fault was it? The dog’s owner.
By the way, you never mentioned what damage was done to your elbow. Are you getting your panties in a knot because of a scratch, or was there real damage to justify your frothing at the mouth?
Ummm are you refering to Hannibal Lecter? He (and Cain in my opinion) are fictional characters.
Also Lizzie Borden was not convicted.
Cartoon
I’m with you on this. It is not your responsibility to see the warning signs. I also agree that the warning signs were little to nothing.
There are bad dogs. There are dogs with genetic defects that means they have to be put down.
Interesting article in the New York Times today.
Let me ask everyone this.
If a woman is walking down a street and a group of men start calling out to her and making unwanted sexual advances and then they jump her and gang rape her is she at fault for not reading the danger signs?
No she is not.
Why?
Because the men are responsible for their actions.
If a young child kills someone with a gun is the child at fault.
No because the child does not comprehend the outcomes of it’s actions. The adult who left the gun out is responsible.
(great now I have dragged literal translation of the bible and guns into this)
A dog is not an adult human. We can not hold up a dog to a standard of behavior that we hold other human members of society up to.
I see no one proposing an elmination of the breed. I see no reason to be upset at people who don’t like the breed. Especially if they were bite by one. If I was bit by Collie I would probably fucking hate those bastards forever. It is my right to hate a breed and I don’t need a cite or a logical reason to do it. If I was suggesting a wholesale elimination of the breed than I should be able to present compelling evidence. But if I want to hate some breed of dog because one of them killed my baby sister 20 years ago I’ll do and I don’t care how many names you call me.
Now some suggestions.
Laws need to be enacted to hold the owner responsible. The burden of proof should be on the dog owner to show that the person bitten acted inappropriatly. (i.e. tresspased, threw stuff at dog, physically threatened owner)
If a dog kills someone that is manslughter charges for the owner.
( I knew a guy who plead guilty to this. He got a year on probation.)
Will you be using night crawlers, salmon eggs, or an artificial lure?
Just teasing. Couldn’t resist. Sorry 
Cartooniverse, let me state this in as plain and simple English as I can.
[ul]
[li]I never cursed at you.[/li][li]I never called you a name, let alone a Mother Fucking Liar.[/li][li]Your anger is entirely misdirected.[/li][li]Consider this my formal request that you not reply to me or address me in any way shape or form any further, either here or anywhere else on any message board anywhere on the internet or via email, snail mail or any other method of contact.[/li][li]If you do not honor my request, I will consider any further comments by you directed to me, harrassment, and will report you to the administration and to your ISP.[/li][/ul]
Thank you, and have a nice day.
So, the men are responsible for their actions, (yup, no argument there), but the woman is not responsible for her actions of not heeding the warning signs and turning around and seeking a safe place? (argument there)
A lot of ‘unwanted’ stuff happens to people. Some people minimize this by learning, heeding subsequent warning signs, and detouring around or otherwise avoiding or mitigating similar circumstances. Otherwise, we wouldn’t have survived as a species.
But these days, seems there are more and more people who get near a situation that many other people would read as “dangerous”, but who blithely continue on anyway, seemingly thinking they have some kind of divine dispensation from hurt.
And when they then do get hurt, why, by god, it’s the situations/predators/whatevers fault, and absolutely none of their own.
These days those types of people scream long and loudly.
Apparantly their survival or well-being is not their own responsiblity…
I have been guilty of this at times myself, but that doesn’t prevent me from saying, at this juncture,
BULLSHIT!
Thank You