Animal Rights!!!!!

Look, animals don’t have “rights” that we don’t give them (by “we” I mean “society” (whatever that is)).

But similarly, **robertliguori **, or The Great Unwashed, don’t have rights that aren’t given by society – I wonder in what way these rights are not equally arbitrary, or equally “pre-supposed”. And I’d like you to address this dichotomy that you assert.

I’d also like you to answer the questions that you quoted me as asking (Jeesy-Chreesy, it’d be rude not to).

Zorro, did you read my previous post that addressed this? Let me re-iterate, do you know there are heinous things going on in this world right now? Yes, we both do? Then why are you not directing your energy towards them right now (as opposed to debating this issue)?

You see, that questions a crock on more than one level. It was a crock when the OP asked it, is was a crock when you asked it, it might just have some rhetorical value when I ask re-ask it.

Well, no, the distinction between humans and non-human animals is not arbitrary, as were the distinctions between whites and non-whites, or men and women.

Much of the prejudicial treatment of blacks in the US was based on a belief that they were naturally inferior in qualities that were the basis for equality in treatment. Many laws that discriminated against women were based on the idea that women had to be protected. Women couldn’t run marathons, for instance, because of a belief that running too far would be too much for the “weaker sex”, and would interfere with their child-bearing abilities.

People in many cases genuinely thought that blacks were less capable than whites, and therefore should not be allowed to vote or manage their own lives. Much segregation law (and laws against miscegenation) were designed to separate blacks from whites so that the supposedly superior white race would not be degraded by “race-mixing”.

These were mistaken beliefs. We have (very fortunately) progressed to the point that we realize that.

There is no evidence (AFAIK) that the distinctions between humans and other non-human animals are non-existent. I see no reason to conclude that a lion could vote, or manage property. No evidence exists that cows or pigs can hold down jobs or pay taxes.

The status of animals is based on a consistent set of principles, which are also applied to other humans. Children and mentally disabled adults do not enjoy the same rights as fully capable adults.

(This is not the same thing as saying that we could, in theory, kill and eat the mentally disabled. The taboo against cannibalism is based on a different theory than that of human rights.)

I think the mention of the “un-natural” use of computers brings up an important point. Animals are subject to a natural order, regulated by evolution, and which is, by and large, not under their conscious control. Indeed, little evidence exists that they are aware that this order exists, or that they are bound by it. They do what they do “naturally” - that is, unreflectively.

Humans have, or can, bypass to a great degree the “natural order” under which their species evolved. Therefore, we have worked out a different system, which we call “ethics”, which is (at least in theory) how we regulate our behavior.

The question is, therefore, how we, being subject to ethical consideration, need to treat animals, who are not. It seems to me that the consensus to date is that we need to base our treatment of animals on those factors which we still share with animals - survival of the species, the desire to avoid suffering - but still refrain from anthropomorphizing, and attributing to animals factor properly ascribed only to humans.

Therefore, since domesticating cows, and humanely slaughtering them, both increases the success of cows as a species, and avoids inflicting unnecessary suffering, it seems to me that raising cattle for food (and leather) is morally justifiable.

Regards,
Shodan

It depends on what you see as “humanely slaughtering”.

And this whole debate also doesn’t take in account that the earth is not a place for “humans only”.
If we have the right to be here, so have the animals.
We have no right to consider any other creature inferior, because of the simple fact that in nature there is no inferiority.

By the way: your remark that children and mentally disabled don’t enjoy the full rights of capable adults make me wonder in which country you live…
Because they do have the same rights as everyone with as only difference that as long as they are minor or otherwise not fully capable to speak for themselves, they are represented by an adult to eventually act for them and eventually defend their rights.

Salaam. A

towel2, a request: Would you mind too terribly using capital letters and spelling out words like “people” and “you?” And while I’m not by any stretch a grammar cop, a spelling checker wouldn’t hurt, either. It’s awfully hard to follow what you’re trying to say. Thanks.
To address some of your most recent post, I oppose cruelty to animals. But that doesn’t mean I don’t also oppose cruelty to people, and it doesn’t mean I value critters more than humans. (Some critters and some humans, I’ll grant you, but not as a general philosophy.)

Sure, really shitty things happen in the world, and there are plenty of things that are worse than a “helpless creature who cant defend itself getting traped in cages so its meat stays tender.” That doesn’t make it right.

I think as you delve a little deeper into the subject, you’ll find there are very few people who value human lives less than animal lives.

Oh, and for what it’s worth, the idea that plants are equivalent to animals because plants “live and breath and have children” is just plain silly. I challenge you to find a single person who opposes animal cruelty or predation solely because animals live, respirate (which plants don’t, by the way), and reproduce.

How do you figure that?

Well, no, the distinction between humans and non-human animals is not arbitrary, as were the distinctions between whites and non-whites, or men and women.

To clarify: I meant arbitrary as in pre-supposing whether or not they had any rights at all.

**There is no evidence (AFAIK) that the distinctions between humans and other non-human animals are non-existent. I see no reason to conclude that a lion could vote, or manage property. No evidence exists that cows or pigs can hold down jobs or pay taxes.

The status of animals is based on a consistent set of principles, which are also applied to other humans. Children and mentally disabled adults do not enjoy the same rights as fully capable adults.**

Okay. This isn’t completely contrary to what I was trying to say. What I don’t agree with is your assertion that “the status of animals is based on ‘a consistent set of principles’, which are also applied to other humans.” Animal welfarists (or even PETA type activists) are not asking for lions to have the right to vote, etc. What is contrary to my point is that the right to “humane” treatment (as is afforded to incompetent humans) is not afforded to non-human animals consistently. We might agree that this is the way it should or could be, but it is not an absolute principle of human ethics at this point in time.

Therefore, since domesticating cows, and humanely slaughtering them, both increases the success of cows as a species, and avoids inflicting unnecessary suffering, it seems to me that raising cattle for food (and leather) is morally justifiable.

Again, the principle of “humane” slaughtering is not an accepted principle at this time, so the rest of your premise doesn’t follow. This is the aspect of it that makes it morally unjustifiable to animal welfarists.

b]No evidence exists that cows or pigs can hold down jobs or pay taxes.**

What, are you saying that “Babe”, the pig from the movie of the same name, didn’t earn money or pay taxes? :slight_smile:

Everything in nature has its place and purpose to keep lif on earth in balance.

Where do you see inferiority in nature? What is inferior/superior according to you and by which standards can you judge and decide about this?

If I had to single out something inferior, I would say it is humanity. The only creature that manages to disturb the whole planet and to endanger the whole planet.
Salaam. A

I think we get into all sorts of problems when we start presupposing animals rights. Animals, to put it bluntly, have few legitimate rights. Any rights they did have would be either implicitly or explicitly embodied in the “natural order of things”, correct? And by “natural order”, I’m referring to nature with the human element removed. So, do we see these “rights” anywhere in nature? When my cat kills an insect or rodent and “plays” with it - basically, torturing it for fun - is it violating the animal’s rights? Is my little kitty immoral? Of course not. Animals, at least as far as humans are not concerned, have no rights relative to one another.

Okay, so let’s throw humans into the equation. We take the idea of human rights for granted, but where do they come from? They come from a recognition that our fellow humans are all thinking, feeling, rational creatures, and as such deserve a certain degree of respect and courtesy. Can we extend such rights to animals? Well, we theoretically could, but there’s no logical reason why we should be compelled to do so. Animals have no concept of rights, they can’t think, they can feel only in the basest and simplest of fashions. They are a separate and distinct class from humans, and the rationale for ascribing most rights to humans simply doesn’t apply to animals.

So does that mean I have no problems with seeing animals tortured or subjected to extensive suffering? No. Why not? Two reasons. First of all, there’s nothing to be gained from subjecting animals to undue suffering. A cow can be killed for food or clothing relatively quickly and painlessly. Since it can be done, I feel it should be done, so as to minimize the unhappiness of the animal. But I don’t see this is a “right” of the animal, any more than I see public maintenance of highways to be a “right” of the people. Like having the government keep up the roads, I think treating animals kindly when possible is a good idea, for a variety of reasons, many political.

Secondly, I, like many others, irrationally anthropomorphize animals. When my cat looks at me quizzically, I like to pretend he’s thinking something clever and cat-like, like “I just don’t get you humans.” In reality, anything resembling a “thought” in that cat’s head is likely more akin to “Duh.” We look at a field of cows grazing, and think “Oh, those poor cows, waiting to be slaughtered in such cramped conditions,” while the only thing running through the cow’s brain is “Chew, chew, chew, chew…” Thus, when we see an animal in a cage, or being used as a test subject, we think, “Well, if that was me, it would be a horrible violation of my rights as a human being. Therefore, it must be wrong.” In fact, this kind of rationalization is completely groundless. That animal isn’t you, it isn’t anything remotely resembling a human. It has no thoughts, it has no emotions, and anything resembling a desire to be free is just animal instinct.

Of course, there are some exceptions among more highly-developed animals, particularly primates. Their brains more closely resemble ours, and they can feel some rudimentary emotions, and have a limited capacity for genuine thought. As such, the rationale that leads us to recognize human rights can applied to them, to some extent. Still, though, they’re obviously not so advanced as to be worthy of the full range of rights of humans.

If you’re going to lobby for animal “rights”, you need to come up with some plausible reason for doing so. You also need to come up with a good place to draw the line, and why. “Because animals have feelings, too” isn’t good enough, unless you explain what you mean by “feelings”, and further, why we should care. The existence of pain sensors does not, in and of itself, prove anything. And do rodents deserve the same rights as, say, cats? How about insects? How about plants? Bacteria? Amino acid compounds?
Jeff

I live in the United States. Children here cannot vote, form valid contracts, decide for themselves where to live, and have to obey their parents, etc.

Seems like a distinction without a difference. Children cannot vote, and no competent adult is assigned to vote on their behalf. And so on.

By “humane slaughter”, I mean methods of execution that minimize the suffering of the animal at least to the point that it is less than can be reasonably expected to occur in a state of nature. Lions are not as scrupulous, AFAIK, as a well-run slaughterhouse.

Certainly abuses exist, but that is not what I mean by “humane slaughter”.

And I would argue that the principle of “humane slaughter” is widely accepted in American society. Most people would agree, I suspect, that torturing an animal to death is morally wrong. But far fewer would agree that it is wrong, in principle, to kill an animal in order to eat its flesh.

You can make a case, I guess, that raising calves for veal is cruel. But it is much more difficult to argue that it is murder to send an electric shock thru a chicken’s head in order to eat it.

Regards,
Shodan

If you truly hold that there is no “inferiority” existent in nature, then you’ve just given up any and all justification for considering anything humans do to animals to be wrong. After all, we’re all just equal animals, and if the other animals can kill and torture with impunity, there’s no reason why we can’t, as well. The second you claim that we humans should be held to higher standards, you implicitly recognize that humans are superior to other species. After all, if it’s humans that are inferior, we should be held to lower standards, right?
Jeff

No, that doesn’t imply that humans are superior to other species; quite the contrary.
Other species don’t hold humans hostage and in caves in order to make them reproduce for their profit, food, whatever.
Thus those other species don’t need to devellop what you call here “higher standards” towards humans, because they simply don’t abuse any human.
Humans abuse and torture and extinct other species at will, which makes humans indeed the inferior of the others. That means that humans do have much lower standards then the other species.
Coming back from this behaviour and being able to recognize the right of the other species to be on earth just like we are, to have freedom just like we have, to have a life just like we have - and thus refrain of abusing and torture and extinct them - brings us only back to the level where the others species always were and remain.

Since no human -used to abuse other species the way it is done on worldwide scale right now- will be able to reverse this process completely, is recognizing that they have exactly the same right of being on this planet and have a good life, at least making some steps forward to the normalisation of human behaviour.

Salaam. A

With all due respect: What a big crock of monkey dung. Animals torture and kill for fun all the time. Case in point: My cat, as I mentioned before. My cat kills things all the time, for no reason other than that it’s fun. If animals and people are equal, then why does my torture and killing of an animal qualify me as cruel, while my cat doing the same is just nature at work?

You’re completely missing the point that in order to hold A to higher standards than B, you necessarily have to assume that A is superior in some way to B. I expect a Porsche to handle better than a Buick, because I assume that a Porsche is a superior car. I would expect Marilyn Vos Savant to outperform someone with Down’s Syndrome on an IQ test, because I assume that Marilyn is intellectually superior. It is ludicrous to say something like, “The Buick Skylark is inferior to the Porsche 996, therefore I hold the Buick to higher standards.” You simply cannot logically say something like, “Humans are inferior to animals, and I hold them to higher standards.” Get it?
Jeff

I’m sorry, but you contradict yourself all the time. In a former post you profile yourself as being able to read the minds of animals, as being able to know they have “no feelings” and so on.
Tne you ocntradict yourself because you say your cat “has fun”.

Now you come once again back with the argument that your cat plays with other animals and kills them for fun.
Sorry, but if an animal has no feelings, then how can if feel some emotion like “fun”?
Secondly, you need to look up some information about animal behaviour. Cats don’t play with a mouse or an other prey “for fun”. What you see as playing, is for them only following instincts = sharpening their hunting tactics with practicing and killing. Sometimes a cat bring a dead mouse or bird into hte house, because he is following his instincts = considers those in the house as part of the group that needs food.

Get it?

I’ll leave the rest of your post for what it is since that makes no sense at all.
By the way: I wouldn’t know who that marylin you mentioned was if I had not by accident read through a translation of a book about that lady, written by her husband. Sorry, but someone who declares among others that learning more then one language is ridiculous posesses in my opinion not exactly the summum of intelligence. The whole book was in style and contenance for me one of those typical American ones = written as if the reader is retarded.
By the way: I know two boys with down syndrom who speak perfectly two languages and have good notices of a third one at that.

Salaam. A

I would assume you say the same about human hunters. They are just playing, and therefore their behavior is moral. Right?

And I disbelieve what you claim about Marily vos Savant saying that learning more than one language is “ridiculous”. I think you either made that up, or misunderstood it.

Unless you would like to break your own policy and produce a cite.

Gee, that reminds me of a certain poster here on the SDMB. No wonder you found it offensive.

Regards,
Shodan

I tells ya . . . a party just ain’t a party until the gratuitous US-bashing gets rolling.

By “humane slaughter”, I mean methods of execution that minimize the suffering of the animal at least to the point that it is less than can be reasonably expected to occur in a state of nature. Lions are not as scrupulous, AFAIK, as a well-run slaughterhouse.

Actually, they are more scrupulous. They don’t cram their prey inside cages for extended periods before killing and eating them. How is this type of suffering (plus other conditions of a factory farm/slaughterhouse) compatible to your “less than expected in a state of nature” rationalisation of humane treatment? And what is a “well-run” slaughterhouse? Vague terms are subject to inconsistent interpretations. Efficient? Economical? Lions are quite so in their slaughter methods. So how do ours compare on any level? So far, it seems to be:
Lions 3; Humans 0.

In any case, your example is anthropomorphising (what lions do), which you’ve argued against, and contradictory to another of your previous assertions:

Humans have, or can, bypass to a great degree the “natural order” under which their species evolved. Therefore, we have worked out a different system, which we call “ethics”, which is (at least in theory) how we regulate our behavior.

Lions are consistent as well as scrupulous in their “natural order” methods. “Ethics”, by definition, need to be scrupulous and consistent too. It doesn’t work out that way in your argument.

Certainly abuses exist, but that is not what I mean by “humane slaughter”.

We are debating the situation as it exists, no? There’s no way to address this contradictory statement except to say: Where abuses exist with certainty, there is no consistent principle of humane slaughter to point to.

And I would argue that the principle of “humane slaughter” is widely accepted in American society.

You would be arguing without first proving your own assertions regarding “humane slaughter” thus far (see above). In any case, can you cite anything to verify that claim? (After all, this is GD) What does “widely accepted” mean as a percentage of society? And what exactly are the definitive standards of this widely accepted humane slaughter principle? How can something undefined be widely accepted?

If you mean in the sense that individuals rationalise what “humane” slaughter means to suit their circumstance (as you are doing), this might be so. But an inconsistent principle is a contradiction of terms (do I need to cite the definition of principle?).

**Most people would agree, I suspect, that torturing an animal to death is morally wrong. But far fewer would agree that it is wrong, in principle, to kill an animal in order to eat its flesh.

You can make a case, I guess, that raising calves for veal is cruel. But it is much more difficult to argue that it is murder to send an electric shock thru a chicken’s head in order to eat it.**

Perhaps, but how do strawman questions address what we’re actually debating? Okay, the scenarios you mention are some specifics that need to be debated in order to establish consistent principles of humane treatment. But if you’re saying that already exists as a widespread principle, then how can you explain the need for these rhetorical arguments?

I’ve been sleeping for a few hours. Have we reached the going round and round in circles stage yet?

No mate, you reached a dead end long ago, with your little wheels spinning, going nowhere. And if I didn’t know better, I’d say you were trolling.

What the hell is trolling, anyway?

As I’m actually in the process of raising chickens and beef for consumption, I want to toss in my two cents.

I will be processing 15 chickens this weekend and three weeks ago I assisted in the slaughter of 52 birds at a friend’s farm.
The essential difference, as I see, between our methods of raising and killing animals and commercial factory farming is that our philosophy is based on the concept of giving the animals the healthiest life possible. As Joel Salatin (a farmer in Virginia who’s model we emulate) said: “We ask the animals, ‘What is it that you want?’ and then try to duplicate that or give that to them as close as we possibly can”.

Unlike chickens raised in confinement houses, our chickens spend each day outdoors in fresh grass, free to hunt grasshoppers and enjoy the benefits of a salad bar at every meal. Although our chickens do receive a supplemental grain mix, they are never fed antibiotics, additional growth supplements or arsenic. Their permanent home, the egg mobile, is moved daily to ensure that the chickens have the freshest grasses available.

When it comes time to slaughter our chickens, we take pains to ensure a minimum of suffering. They’re killed very quickly.
We slit their jugular vein on either side of the windpipe and they loose consciousness within seconds.

I don’t feel a bit guilty for raising chickens for meat or eggs primarily because I ensure that the birds have a great life and a quick death.
However, I am absolutley opposed to the current methods of meat production that dominate the American food industry-both for the sake of the animals and the humans involved.