Anne Frank's article - Definition of Naziism

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030808.html

Heya-

Just a quick comment about today’s article. As always I found it interesting, but I wanted to set one thing straight.

“Levin, of course, had had nothing to do with writing the diary itself, but the story continued to circulate among right-wing nutjobs for many years.”

That quote was made in reference to neo-Nazi types. Nazi-ism is an extension of liberal, left wing political thought, not of conservative, right wing thought. In the past Cecil has made his political feelings known, and I have no problem with that… but I feel i’d be remiss to fail to mention that in this case, it’s not the conservatives fault. :slight_smile:

This reminds me of the Henny Youngman joke about a production of “The Diary of Anne Frank” starring Pia Zadora in the title role. When the Gestapo showed up towards the end the audience started shouting, “She’s in the attic!”

“Nazi-ism is an extension of liberal, left wing political thought, not of conservative, right wing thought”

>>Huh? Nazis are liberals? I never heard that one. I believe most people would consider Facists as Right-Wing, and Communists Left-Wing. Even though they are both typically totalitarian.

on the page at
http://www.mskousen.com/Books/Articles/labels.html/url]

Mark Skousen says that the Fascists of the 1930s in Italy and Nazi Germany were designated as right wingers.

So actually Nazi-ism is an extension of conservative, right wing thought. Albeit not the conservative right wing thought of today’s era.

I find the cartoon of Hitler reading the diary offensive.

Do you? It adequately symbolizes the attempts by extreme right-wingers to micro-analyze the diary to disprove its authenticity.

Perhaps so. Nontheless, seeing that bastard holding her book, even in a cartton makes me sick.

The sentence “Nazi-ism is an extension of liberal, left wing political thought”, so glibly uttered by Mr. TheRobb, I find problematic. The question is whether TR was referring to Nazism or merely to its latter day reincarnations. While it is clear to me that Nazism is a far-right movement - more on that later - it could be that TR was merely referring to the fact that, much to the shame of all concerned, there is nothing liberals can do about Neo-Nazism. While never actually supportive, a liberal feels obliged to protect everybody’s right to express their opinion, which may prove troublesome at times.
It could be, however, that TR was indeed referring to classical Nazism. If this be so, I disagree. The trouble is that, as always, one tries to portray multidimensional beings - being of multiple characteristics - onto a single-celled vector, or dimension. If we are to examine three rival ideologies prevalent during the first half of the 20th century - Liberal Capitalism, Fascism, and Communism - we can clearly see that each shares one denomination with every other ideology and differs from it by two. A rough generalization as it may be, the following least may prove to be of use:

Fascism: Tyranny, Capitalist Economy, All Human Beings Are Definitely Not Equal
Communism: Tyranny (at least during Stalinist period), Communist Economy, Equity
Liberal Capitalism: Democracy, Capitalist Economy, Equity (although to a lesser extent than communism)

What then is the dimension Fascism and Communism are on different sides of which whereas Liberal Capitalism is somewhere in the middle? Equity. A communist sees all men as equal, countries obsolete relics of the past. For one man to attain wealth is sinful, although it bodes well for Siberian housing contractors. A fascist is not only capitalist – seeing monetary inequality as necessary and right – but also delves further into national borders. A fascist sees men as belonging to their country, rather than the opposite. And above all, there rises the fascist leader, worshipped and revered (this may have been the case concerning Stalinistic Communism as well, but shouldn’t have been). Nazism is tricky. Some would have it placed to Fascism’s right, differentiating, as it were, between presumed races as well. Some would have it acknowledged as little more than a stupider form of fascism. Liberal Capitalism, as practiced in some current day countries, is in the middle: it acknowledges the existence of countries and monetary inequality, but does not sees the people of other countries as inferiors. One should further the interest of one’s countries, if only by way of consequentially furthering his own interests; but there lacks that zealousness of fascism. Also, democratic as Liberal Capitalism is, there is no deified leader, and the country is at the hands of the people, rather than the opposite. The Liberals referred to are obviously leaning to the left (historically, due to opposing French Revolution factions, thus called); Taking From The Rich And Giving To The Poor While Absolutely Not Wearing Green Tights. Conservatives, on the other hand, are willing to except greater inequality. This Does Not Make Them Bad People. They Too Are Not Obliged To Wear Tights. Clearly, Liberals and Conservatives also differ on other levels, other dimension not hereby discussed; ever is this the case when one compares ideologies based on a single value.

(Not to bad for a first post, is it? It is? Darn.)

Too bad. Not “to bad”. Well, it is to bad. “Too bad”, that is. Bloody stupid language.

The word ‘socialist’ is IN the nazi name of NSDAP!

Face it, it was very much what we’d see if the democrat party gets in control of the USA.

The socialist economy there was controlled by the government. Industry was socialized.

This is HARDLY right wing!

Eh, if you go far right enough to end up being far left, and vice versa. It’s a circle, not a line.

A. Do not accuse anybody of any tendency towards Nazism. Fascism is all right, if abhorred. Nazism is plain stupid.
B. One should never take too earnestly to names. As for the economy, despite a general tendency towards capitalism, I gather heavy industry was nationalized as per the needs of the state. Indeed, you are right that fascism has this alike to socialism: in both the needs of the state overpower that of the individual. As said before, it is only in when looked at from one specific angle that one gets the spectrum so casually discussed, that of Fascism->Moderate Right Wing->Liberal Capitalism->Social Democracy->Communism. Once again, we’re dealing with beings of dimensions aplenty, and all simplifications are inherently lacking. Indeed, no mainstream group in modern day America can even think of endorsing Fascism. Still, when one examines fringe groups, radicals, there can be little doubt that radical Liberals all turn to Communism, whereas radical Right Wingers in part turn to Fascism, often, as it is, coupled with racism, an alliance unholy.

It’s not even a circle. It’s some sort of blubbery multidimensional form with ants all over it. However, I digress. I do not believe that it is in any way circular, other than in human nature, not ideology: both fascists and communists eventually turn to one absolute, supreme leader (although both get over it, eventually, in favor of a council of party members), and all leaders are alike. It’s surprising that people even bother giving them names.

IMHO the term conservative has different meaning in Europe and US.

A US conservative wants the Constitution used as it was written. (No pinko judges changing the clear original meaning. )

A European conservative wants a George-III-type in charge.

When it was written, the Constitution was a liberal document. Back then liberal meant ‘let the citizen run his own life’; as in ‘not a slave’.

The forum “Comments on Cecil’s Columns” is intended for a discussion of Cecil’s columns. A debate over whether Nazism is right-wing or left-wing – however tangetial to Cecil’s Column – belongs in the forum called “Great Debates,” I have therefore moved it accordingly.

However, please note that Cecil is always correct. Most Americans would classify neo-Nazis as right-wing nutjobs, who support most right-wing causes – like, say, gun control, no government interference in free speech, states’ rights, opposition to federal legislation on civil rights, etc. Regardless of the 1930s German Nazis being socialists, today’s neo-Nazis are far from it. I don’t think I’ve heard of a neo-Nazi supporting medicare, or gun control, or opposing discrimination, or any other identifiably left-wing issues. Cecil is always correct.

(Notice that I don’t say that Cecil is always right, I wouldn’t want to get into a discussion of Cecil’s politics, which, BTW, are not so easily classified. Cecil, like most intelligent people, eschews identification with any one set of ideology over another, since they each have some good ideas and some very bad ideas.)

Henny Youngman told a Pia Zadora joke? :dubious:

Hmmm … Pia Zadora in an attic.

Please excuse me for a moment.

They did have “socialist” in the name, and the Nazis were certainly for the expansion of the powers of government in Germany (in other words, their own power) which is a goal of both fascist and socialist governments.

But other than that, I can’t see why you’d view them as socialist. They hunted down and killed communists, leftists and others who advocated Marxism. They were very much pro-business, although of course wealthy business owners were required to be loyal to the Nazi Party. Plenty of German industrialists made huge profits due to their Nazi connections and things like arms-manufacturing contracts – had the Nazis been socialists, the government would have run such businesses. They didn’t do away with private property (unless, of course, you were Jewish, Romani, a dissident, etc.) That’s the general ideology known as
fascism – the idea that a totalitarian government should work hand in hand with business interests.

Still, I’m sure everyone would agree that Nazism is so extreme and horrific as to have very little to do with any mainstream party in the U.S. Neo-nazi fringe groups are generally considered to be right-wing, but they certainly are eschewed by both the Republicans and the vast majority of people who call themselves “conservatives.”

Of course their name was National Socialist Party (or the German equivalent). Of course that means that they were socialists!

Of course the country was named the German Democratic Republic! Of course that means that they were a democracy!

Of course the country is named the People’s Republic of China! Of course that means that the People are in charge!

Names mean absolutely nothing, especially in politics. They’re chosen to project an image, not to describe accurately.

Once again, ideologies are multidimensional concepts, and all shapes thus formed, after a connect-the-dots fashion, are sure to give even Hawking a headache.

What jayjay said! (LOL)