Anonymous & Pseudonymous Posting

[Velma]

*Originally posted by racinchikki *
**
Just because a person’s user name is a real human name does not mean that it’s necessarily their own name. I have absolutely no evidence that your name is James I. Hymas other than your word. You have no evidence that my given name is not racinchikki or perhaps Racine Chick or something, other than your own suppositions and my word. What’s the difference?

And yes, I could try to look you up, but all that would prove is that there is, in fact, a person somewhere whose name is James I. Hymas. It’s not necessarily YOU. You’re no more nor less anonymous than anyone else here. **

I agree with racinchikki , and I haven’t seen you address this.

Another issue that has been brought up by several people is that we say things in this forum that we don’t necessarily want others to read and recognize as ours. You take this to mean we are not being truthful, or hiding. Why? What if someone came to this board and wanted advice or information on an eating disorder, or just to share her experience. She might be afraid of people at her work finding this out and treating her differently, or asking her questions she is not willing to share. Is she then a coward, or less credible, because she chooses not to use her real name? Must we give up all privacy to be credible? I tell people on this board things I don’t want others to know. I tell my sister things I don’t want others to know. I tell my therapist things I don’t want others to know. None of this makes me less truthful. I want to rant about my boss, and I don’t want him to read it, because I might get fired, or because he would take it the wrong way and be hurt, and he’s basically a good person. That’s not hiding, IMO, that’s being tactful.
I don’t walk up to every person I know and tell them exactly what I think of them, because it’s not polite. If I thought people I knew would read all my posts and know who I was, I would have to censor myself, and be less honest . Not because I have “something to hide”, but because not everyone I know is as understanding and intelligent as most people on these boards!

[jiHymas]

*Originally posted by racinchikki *
**And yes, I could try to look you up, but all that would prove is that there is, in fact, a person somewhere whose name is James I. Hymas. It’s not necessarily YOU. You’re no more nor less anonymous than anyone else here. **

Originally posted by Velma
I agree with racinchikki , and I haven’t seen you address this.

Originally posted by jiHymas
Well, in my particular case, my eMail address is from my business, which has a site (and even a picture!) … so if I’m hoaxing, it’s pretty elaborate, cross-connecting as it does with all sorts of things.

Well, you could call Toronto directory assistance, and ask for my telephone number. Call and ask me if I’ve been posting.

Originally posted by Velma
I want to rant about my boss, and I don’t want him to read it, because I might get fired, or because he would take it the wrong way and be hurt, and he’s basically a good person. That’s not hiding, IMO, that’s being tactful.
I don’t walk up to every person I know and tell them exactly what I think of them, because it’s not polite. If I thought people I knew would read all my posts and know who I was, I would have to censor myself, and be less honest .

Would you identify your boss by name in your pseudonymous rant? Does that make a difference?

Originally posted by jiHymas
**“Never say in private what you would not say in public; never say in public what you would not say in private.” **

This rule works for me. You can accept or reject it (or accept with reservations). I was just curious as to why (most) people are not only happy with pseudonyms, but some consider them better.

[MrVisible]

There comes a point in a discussion where one party realizes the other party is simply stating a position, and has no intention of listening, no matter how many questions they seem to ask.

It is at that point that I wander over to Cafe Society to see if the thread on the latest Angel episode is up yet.

Ta!

[Largo62]

*Originally posted by MrVisible *
**I think, jiHymas, you may be misunderstanding the very nature of this place.

The anonymity that our screen names provide is not a cover, a cloak to hide behind. Instead, it is an opportunity to be taken for who we really are. In the course of a poster’s career here, they have the opportunity to impress thousands of strangers with their knowledge, their eloquence, their philosophy, their humor, and their intelligence. For once in our lives, we have a chance to find out what we’re like without being judged on such minutiae as our titles, rank, clothing, race, sex, or appearance. We can achieve, if we try, the respect of a group of people engaged in a similar endeavor, and in doing so, build a community of people based on the true contents of our character.

What you’re misapprehending as subterfuge is actually the most open form of honesty I’ve ever found in a community.

The only situation I’ve ever found that was analogous was a nudist colony I stayed at, years ago. I’m not a nudist, and didn’t understand the culture, but through circumstances I spent a few weeks in the buff. (As you might imagine, a long story.) One night, late, I had stayed up to watch a lunar eclipse that I was excited to see. So, I was lounging in a hot tub, in the darkness, watching a shadow creep over the moon, when a man asked if I minded if he joined me. I agreed, and we proceeded to have a very pleasant, in-depth conversation on astronomy, science, and predictions about space travel in the future, all while watching the moon recede, then reappear from the Earth’s shadow. Once the show was over, we exchanged names, and went our separate ways.

I found out later that he was a well-known, well-off corporate lawyer. I, at the time, was a homeless ne’er-do-well. Neither of us, in other circumstances, would have spoken to the other, if we’d known. And yet, because we had no way of telling who we were, we found a common ground for discussion, and had a wonderful conversation, from which we both emerged enriched.

The anonymity you see is, for the most part, not a disguise. Instead, it’s a way of saying “Look. This is me. Without fashion, without rank, without riches or poverty or skin color. This is simply my substance, my expression. Judge me by that, and by that alone.”

It’s honesty. **

You put that extremely well, MrVisible. I have to admit that until I got to your post I was beginning to wonder if I had really been honest in using a pseudonym instead of my real name. But, as you point out, some of us would never have communicated at all if we were to meet in “real life” because we might make assumtions based on appearance, gender, race, age, etc. I don’t think most of us would like to believe that we do eliminate people from our circle of contact on any of those bases, but in truth, if one of us is wearing a suit and the other a set of dirty overalls, how likely is it that we would seek out each others opinions?

I have complained to friends who send me some of the unattributed political and religious diatribes that find their way around the email circuit. I’ve told them that when I have something to say I put my name on it. And with Letters to the Editor and the like, I always have. Even then, though, I only include the town I live in, and not an address or phone number (except to the editor, who has the same standards about “shooting from cover” that I have, and won’t publish me unless he can verify who and where I am and that the opinion really belongs to me). I don’t have a problem with that.

Actually, I posted an essay on the Ten Commandments on the boards last January, which carried my real name. (The pseudonym I was using before the “interruption” was Desert_Larry. I registered on the interim Boards as DesertGeezer, which name the Powers That Be generously permitted me to keep when the current incarnation of the SDMB was launched. I just liked it better. Seems to express the age of geezerhood that I am beginning identify myself with.

On point, though, jiHymas], I’m not shooting from cover. I’m just mixing with a lot of people whose opinions and beliefs I might never have known, and with whom I might never have shared mine, because we wouldn’t normally be in contact in our daily lives. My real name is Larry Gott. I’m proud of it, and make no attempt to hide it. But for purposes of the Boards, I’m DesertGeezer. I’m comfortable with it, and I hope you will come to be as well.

[jiHymas]

*Originally posted by DesertGeezer *
**On point, though, jiHymas], I’m not shooting from cover. I’m just mixing with a lot of people whose opinions and beliefs I might never have known, and with whom I might never have shared mine, because we wouldn’t normally be in contact in our daily lives. My real name is Larry Gott. I’m proud of it, and make no attempt to hide it. But for purposes of the Boards, I’m DesertGeezer. I’m comfortable with it, and I hope you will come to be as well. **

Fair enough. I don’t share your views, but I can understand the attractions.

[Cervaise]

It occurs to me that the concern Mr. James I. Hymas (if that is your real name ) is expressing is, in fact, largely true on the Internet generally, but not here. Anonymous poison-pen letters and unbridled nameless aggressiveness, we will all admit, are distressingly common in many if not most areas of the Web – Usenet, other message boards, website guestbooks, and so on.

But not here. That’s why this board’s membership is so loyal, and why the “right” kind of person (to impose a judgement) gravitates here. We do know each other. We make arrangements to meet face-to-face, as an MPSIMS search for “dopefest” will confirm. And what’s more, when the typical overly-hormonal teenager or basement-dwelling misanthrope shows up here and tries to stir up trouble, they are shunned.

And that, too, is why this debate has stretched on so long, and why so many people here have taken exception: We’re being accused of intentions and behaviors that don’t really exist on this board. We’re being lumped in, a priori, with the Teeming Unwashed, and we resent it.

Let’s try to find a middle ground in this discussion, to wit:

jiHymas: Whatever you might have found to be true elsewhere on the Internet, know that this board is a very different place. Whereas, on Usenet or AOL chat rooms or whatever you’re using for comparison, it’s true that the indiscriminate firehose of mindlessly anonymous venom forces one to seek out whatever tiny kernels of integrity in order to maintain one’s sanity, that is not the case here. Please do us the favor of not judging us until you’ve spent enough time here to recognize this fact for yourself.

Everyone else: Concede that what Mr. Hymas is suggesting is, indeed, true of much of the rest of the Web. Admit that he has a reason for feeling the way he does, and that he can point to any number of examples of the behavior he describes – elsewhere. Don’t take offense; simply allow him the time to learn this new environment and adjust his preconceptions on his own.

Fair?

[jiHymas]

*Originally posted by Cervaise *
jiHymas:Whatever you might have found to be true elsewhere on the Internet, know that this board is a very different place. Whereas, on Usenet or AOL chat rooms or whatever you’re using for comparison, it’s true that the indiscriminate firehose of mindlessly anonymous venom forces one to seek out whatever tiny kernels of integrity in order to maintain one’s sanity, that is not the case here. Please do us the favor of not judging us until you’ve spent enough time here to recognize this fact for yourself.

Blessed are the peacemakers! I’ll point out that anonymous venom is not my only concern, but also rigour. If Joe Blow expresses an opinion on, say, Catholic doctrine - well, fine, but it doesn’t necessarily carry any force. If the Pope does the same, I am much more willing to consider that the position has been well thought out!

Throughout this debate, I have attempted to do is point out how I judge myself, how I form judgements of other’s opinions and given voice to the eternal plaintive wail “Why can’t everyone be more like me?”. It has certainly not been my intention to denigrate other’s choices and if I have given offense by appearing to do so then I apologize for having given that impression.

There have been many explanations posted on this thread explaining just why the authors do not share my views, which have shown a great variety of rationales. My understanding of the diversity of opinion on this subject has been enriched, which was my purpose in starting the thread. I retain my own views - but have more knowledge of others, which, as I noted earlier, is a Good Thing.

[Polycarp]

Many posters here know my real name. And if occasion comes up to state it in a thread, I will. But it’s revealing to me that from time to time my wife refers to me as “Poly” (which is, other than the unofficial addition as my patronal-middle name, no part of my real name) and about 15,000 more people know me by it than by the name my parents selected. Much more of my personal life, feelings, thoughts, and attitudes can come out here in the less structured environment of a message board than at a bar, party, Bible study, or whatever where I might encounter others. I find that a positive, and respect that people will reveal what they feel comfortable revealing, be it personal name, how they lost their virginity, or their relationship to God.

I suppose that’s a case of the tail wagging the dog, but that’s where it is for me.

[toadspittle]

*Originally posted by jiHymas *
**

Would you identify your boss by name in your pseudonymous rant? Does that make a difference?
**

ji-- let me ask you, since it hasn’t quite sunk in: do you think it’s EVER valid for someone to deal with things anonymously/secretly? Consider:

• secret ballots for voting; what if everyone’s vote was immediately displayed in large letters above the booth as they entered it?

• crime-reporting tiplines; what if you HAD to give your name if you had information about a crime? if you couldn’t trust that your name would never come to the hands of the criminal, how many fewer people would call?

• suicide/drug-abuse hotlines; what if your name was entered in a publicly available register if you called? how many people would continue to suffer privately rather than seek help?

If you understand the value of anonymity in these situations, perhaps then you’ll understand why some people value anonymity here; after all, it’s not JUST debates on the SDMB. As many others have mentioned (but you haven’t addressed in turn), the SDMB fulfills many functions, including:

1. a place to get factual reference information (GQ)

2. a place to discuss/debate weighty matters (GD)

3. a place to get advice about medical issues, relationship difficulties, upcoming purchases, etc. (IMHO, MPSIMS, GQ…)

4. a place to chat about pop culture (Cafe)

Some people require anonymity in order for the SDMB to fulfill some of those functions (like asking what to do about an abusive boyfriend or an unwanted pregnancy, let’s say, or being able to discuss a subject that would be taboo in the poster’s usual social circles–like a public school teacher who wants to discuss religion, a pediatrician who wants to talk about how much he loves listening to Howard Stern, or a nun who wants to talk about her rape fantasies). Get it? Some people don’t want folks in the real world to come across their posts and then wave it in their face later.

[Jerevan_Somerville]

*Originally posted by jiHymas *
Throughout this debate, I have attempted to do is point out how I judge myself, how I form judgements of other’s opinions… There have been many explanations posted on this thread explaining just why the authors do not share my views, which have shown a great variety of rationales. My understanding of the diversity of opinion on this subject has been enriched, which was my purpose in starting the thread. I retain my own views - but have more knowledge of others, which, as I noted earlier, is a Good Thing.

Well, it was a Good Question to start with, too.

One of the interesting aspects of pseudonymous posting (on this board, at least) is that it is often harder to have preconceived notions – conscious or otherwise – about a poster’s gender, age, nationality, sexual orientation, occupation, and so on. I think it’s rather interesting that I don’t always have that information; it’s like speaking mind to mind, a form of intellectual telepathy. A poster is simply taken at face value, in this case as represented by his/her words and ability, when necessary, to back up what is written with facts or a well-reasoned opinion. It doesn’t matter whether the poster is a lawyer, a chemist, a doctor, a coal miner, a musician.

I’ve got plenty of self-styled experts in my line of work (analytical chemistry) who have no difficulty rendering scientific verdicts on topics about which they know nothing. The fact that I know their names doesn’t stop them from believing that they’re right. Only my ability to present evidence to the contrary can do that – and even then I’m not always successful. On the other hand, most of the threads to which I have posted have had little or nothing to do with science, so my “credibility” in those fora must rest entirely on my ability to express rational arguments.

Still, I do understand and admire your stance on attaching your real/given name to your statements here, internet stalkers and all. It takes a certain amount of conviction and courage to do so, in this day and age.

[jiHymas]

*Originally posted by toadspittle *
**ji-- let me ask you, since it hasn’t quite sunk in: do you think it’s EVER valid for someone to deal with things anonymously/secretly? **

Well, I can’t speak for “someone” … I can only speak for myself. Some things are confidential - for sure. Doctor/patient confidentiality is sacred, as is lawyer/client and even financial advisor/investor: a list which I’m sure can be extended quite a bit.

But this message board is a public place. I would not feel comfortable discussing intensely personal matters in public, even with a bag over my head. It would also make me uncomfortable if I said pseudonyminously something hurtful or injurious to another person.

If I feel something needs to be said, or should be said, or would be useful to me to say in a public place - I’ll say it and sign my name. If, on reflection, I feel I do not wish to be associated with the remarks to the extent that I do not want to sign my name: well then, time for a little think which will resolve itself into:

i) the thought is not appropriate for a public place, or

ii) I am insufficiently committed to the idea to waste everybody’s time bringing it up, or

iii) I should sign my name and face the consequences.

[toadspittle]

One of the interesting aspects of pseudonymous posting (on this board, at least) is that it is often harder to have preconceived notions – conscious or otherwise – about a poster’s gender, age, nationality, sexual orientation, occupation, and so on. I think it’s rather interesting that I don’t always have that information; it’s like speaking mind to mind, a form of intellectual telepathy. A poster is simply taken at face value, in this case as represented by his/her words and ability, when necessary, to back up what is written with facts or a well-reasoned opinion. It doesn’t matter whether the poster is a lawyer, a chemist, a doctor, a coal miner, a musician.

All right. I admit it. I am, in fact, a highly sophisticated Turing machine, not a human being at all.

[Jerevan_Somerville]

*Originally posted by jiHymas *
But this message board is a public place. I would not feel comfortable discussing intensely personal matters in public, even with a bag over my head.

This is interesting… because it highlights the different expectations each of brings to this forum. Some people do need this kind of forum to speak of intensely personal matters, because they could not do so in public, even with a bag over their heads.

It would also make me uncomfortable if I said pseudonyminously something hurtful or injurious to another person.

Also admirable. I think you will find that the members of this forum take pains not to say anything of this nature, pseudonymously or otherwise. Or if someone does write in a vicious, intolerant, mean-spirited way, it is dealt with appropriately by the moderators. We may be anonymous to one another, if we so desire, but not to the SDMB staff.

toadspittle: Here’s a question. What if the other SDMB members weren’t real, just programs in some kind of virtual-reality database, and you were the only real human poster using it?

[toadspittle]

I’d feel REAAAALLY special. All this for little ol’ me …? Gawrsh.

Then I’d invest in whatever company built the darned thing, b/c they’re geniuses.

[catsix]

Years ago I did use my real name for everything on the internet.

And then some wacko tracked me down and showed up at my door and I never did it again.

Also makes it a lot easier to be myself without my family freaking out that I told that embarassing story about what happened at Thanksgiving.

If they see some random nickname and just a story with no names attached, they can pretend it wasn’t them.

It’s also a good way to shuffle off the constraints of profession/social status that ‘real life’ is prone to. When nobody knows who you are, what you look like, what you wear, how much you make, and what kind of car you have…they listen to what you really think.

[Triskadecamus]

I thought of another matter, as well.

Some portion of the whole online community must use identifiers other than their legal names. Even using my entire legal name turns up 10 identical people on GOOGLE. My name us uncommon enough that I never met anyone with the same name in my entire life, off line, Including large family reunions.

The reality is that I don’t want a twenty eight letter name with a number as a public exchange identification. As far as I can tell, my thirteen letter name is unique on the web.

That counts double for the Joe Green’s of the world, and the Chou Lee’s as well. Since Jim Johnson has to be JJohnson24594, or some other name, let’s cut him, and the rest of us some slack, and just accept the fact that I can’t really hide, and you can’t really know anything about me under real time normal conditions, and that isn’t much different from what we do in person.

Tris

“What have you done to that cat? It looks half dead!” ~ Mrs. Erwin Schroedinger ~

[hazel-rah]

Speaking as a person who does a fair amount of socializing online, I think it’s very rude to ask people what their real name is.

Blowing off a totally anonymous post I can understand, but if you can’t afford any credibility to a pseudonymous identity based on what they have said online in the past, I’ve got to wonder what exactly you hope to get out of an online community.

-fh

[il_Topo]

From the Privacy Rights Clearinghouse (admittedly more applicable to Usenet rather than the SDMB, but I thought of this topic when I saw the quoted text):
Note that public postings made on the Internet are often archived and saved for posterity. For example, it is possible to search and discover the postings an individual has made to Usenet newsgroups. This information can be used to create profiles of individuals for a variety of purposes, such as employment background checks and direct marketing.

[jiHymas]

*Originally posted by hazel-rah *
**… if you can’t afford any credibility to a pseudonymous identity based on what they have said online in the past, I’ve got to wonder what exactly you hope to get out of an online community.
-fh **

The same thing I hope to get from any social situation. The key for me is context … you seek that context from “what they have said online in the past”, I say fine, but “real-life” is part of the context as well.

[tomndebb]

Anonymity does not protect only the poster. I have contributed on several threads dealing with kids with “issues.” My authority on those threads is based on my claim to have lived through experiences with my kids. However, I see no reason to expose my kids to harrassment from their classmates as those kids use Google to drag up old comments in ancient posts.

As for my reliability on this board (or the other boards and newsgroups where I post), it is in exact proportion to the quality of the posts I have already submitted. If I post things that are wildly and widely variant from the facts, I will earn a reputation for either dishonesty, ignorance, or foolishness. Since I use the same handle in every location, dishonesty or foolishness in one group will very likely follow me back to other groups.

These are discussion groups. My word is not better because I have put a name on my posts. It is accepted if, over the course of several months, I have been found to have contributed accurate information or well-reasoned opinions–regardless whether my name is Tom Beerewalderstät, George W. Bush, William J. Clinton, or Albert Einstein. In fact, placing “my” real name on a thread guarantees nothing. I could easily use the name of my next-door neighbor. Any remarks I made regarding locale would be supported by the apparent name, and he may simply work in a similar field and have the same number of children, so that all my incidental information would “check out.” (As a matter of fact, my neighbor two doors away does have the same number of children, a working wife, and we each worked on the same campus of the same corporation for many years.)

If we are exchanging services, goods, or cash, my true name is important. If we are exchanging information and opinions, my “real” name is irrelevant in light of the quality of my contributions. If someone wants to ignore my posts because I have not added my legal signature, they may join the hordes of people who possibly dismiss my comments because they perceive that I have the wrong politics, religion, education, or interest in sports.