I can’t say anything remotely like this has ever happened to me, but if it were to I do not think I would consider it rape. Okay, if I said “What? You’re a man? Get off me!” and he refused then yes, that would turn the situation into rape. Otherwise, no.
If the “man” in question identified as a woman (pre- or non-operative M-to-F transsexual) I couldn’t even see getting very angry about it. If he was just some weirdo straight guy who had some bizarre lesbian fantasy then he’d be a world class jerk and I’d tell everyone all about it in hopes that he’d never dare show his face in that gay bar again, but if you’re picking up strangers in bars and having sex without asking a lot of questions first you don’t have much right to be upset when your partner isn’t exactly as she or he seemed. That’s why it’s a good idea not to pick up strangers in bars and have sex without asking a lot of questions first if you’re fussy about who you’ll have sex with.
You’ve gotta be kidding me! :eek: For the record I have never picked up strange folk in bars, but I certainly can imagine being upset should it turn out your “date” is the opposite gender you bargained for.
I couldn’t agree with you more here. Just one more risk of promiscuous sex…I can still understand being upset with the consequences,…but it is nice to get to know someone before going poking around in their innards.
They’d be of the opposite sex, not the opposite gender. I couldn’t blame a biological male for presenting as a woman if that biological male identified as a woman. Even if I had a low opinion of transsexuals and thought they were just mentally ill or delusional I don’t think I could blame the person if they honestly believed they were or were meant to be a person of the opposite sex. I might be angry about not being told the full story up front, but if you’re going to hop in the sack with people you just met I don’t think you have a reasonable expectation of getting the full story up front.
And, since the OP specified the setting as a gay bar, I’d be a damn fool if I went in not realizing that there would likely be quite a few people there who were transsexual, transgendered, or just transvestites. At a mainstream bar or club this would be more unusual, but even then I think most adults old enough to go to bars and pick up strangers for sex must realize that there are some people out there who look, act, or dress in a way more commonly associated with people of the opposite biological sex and you can’t always be sure about things just from having a few drinks and a casual chat with someone.
So you mean to tell me Captain Studly goes to a bar to pick up a girl, unknowingly meets a transsexual and brings her home. When he notes that she has a penis and she says, “But I feel like a woman” you don’t think he has a place to be a little bit irked?
“Oh, you’re still the opposite GENDER , in that case let’s get our groove on.”
Mind you, in no way shape or form am I promoting promiscuity, but I think that if you pull a “Crying Game” on someone, then it is at least understandable that the other person might be ticked. Again to make it clear…under no circumstance does anyone deserve to be hit, injured or otherwise mistreated,…but you might have some 'splaining to do. :smack:
Irked about what? That she wasn’t totally upfront about everything? That’s certainly unfortunate, but why should he expect a casual acquaintances to spill her guts to him in a bar (although goodness knows some people do spill their guts after a few drinks)? If you’re taking home people you’ve only just met I think you should consider yourself lucky if they aren’t keeping far worse facts to themselves. That’s the whole thing about people you don’t know – you don’t know them. I don’t feel sorry for people who pick up strangers and then get mad when the stranger wasn’t what they assumed, unless the stranger’s lack of disclosure actually endangers the other person (e.g. “Sorry I forgot to mention I’m HIV+!” or “Whoops, guess I should have warned you about my murderously jealous boyfriend!”).
Now, if a person you’ve just met actually lies to you there may be good reason to be ticked, but I just don’t think it’s lying for someone who identifies as a woman to dress as a woman. If she says “Gosh, I sure am glad I was born a woman!” when she wasn’t then that would be a lie. If she makes mention of her female reproductive organs when she doesn’t have any then that would be a lie. But if she sincerely thinks of herself as a woman then I don’t see how one could say she’s intentionally tricking people by dressing and acting like a woman.
I don’t doubt that despite all this Captain Studly would still feel irked, but the only person he has any rational reason to be upset with is himself. It’s his own fault for deciding to have sex with a stranger based solely on assumptions about the way she looks when he should know full well that there are some people who he wouldn’t want to have sex with who might look the same way. So he can be mad at himself all he likes, but he’s not getting much sympathy from me if he tries to pin things on the other person.
Just to clarify (and to further procrastinate on the project I’m supposed to be working on right now), I think it would be very foolish of individuals who are transgendered to fail to mention this fact to a casual sex partner. If they assume that the other person won’t care about that without having good reason to believe this, they’ve made Captain Studly’s mistake of assuming something about someone they hardly know. They’d have only themselves to blame if the other person refused to have sex with them once the truth was revealed. Both parties would have good reason to be embarassed about the misunderstanding. But I don’t see any reason to treat it as anything more than an embarassing misunderstanding unless one of the people involved actually intended to trick the other.
Yeah they could have a few laughs regarding the faux pas over beer nuts. Am I the only one that thinks that the impetus would be on the individual with the “information” to take it upon themselves to share it with anyone who might reasonably be affected by it. If you know that odds are…someone might become…bemused at the sudden and unexpected appearance of a penis, I think that the moral obligation lays with you to “spill the beans” before it gets to the point of “an embarassing misunderstanding”.
Am I the only one that has a problem with this? :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack:
Sometimes I think I have travelled to another planet without noticing. :rolleyes:
By the way, Lamia…I am honestly not trying to belittle your opinion…I just don’t GET it :dubious: :eek: :mad: :rolleyes:
Captain Studly has some “information” too…the information that he doesn’t want to have sex with anyone who wasn’t born a woman. Did he mention that little fact to the transsexual woman at the bar? Do you think she’d have been so keen to go home with him if she knew he had a problem with transsexuals?
Now, if the answer to both questions is “yes” then the transsexual woman was being deceptive. She must also have been either crazy or drunk, because I doubt any sane and sober pre-op transsexual woman would be willing to take off her panties in front of someone who she wasn’t pretty sure would be cool with what they’d see there. For her own safety, the smart thing to do would be to ask Captain Studly if he would be cool with it. But if we are speaking about morality, I don’t see why her failure to disclose her potentially deal-breaking “information” should be treated any differently than his.
Ok, enough back and forth Lamia…I think we have both made our cases. I would like some other folks to weigh in…whaddya think…is our transsexual morally obliged to notify potential partners that she has a penis before they have sexual activity? We’re assuming that this “one night stand” (which I totally agree is a dumb thing to do anyway, regardless of the possibility you might meet folks who aren’t what you think they are) originates in a bar that is just your normal everyday bar and does not particularly cater to transsexuals, so our male friend has no reason to suspect that the woman he is talking to is actually a transsexual. Thoughts?
I actually think she does, but only if she realizes or at least suspects that he does not already know and that this knowledge would make a difference to him. If for some reason she wrongly believes or assumes that he already knows she is a pre-op transsexual or that he would not care one way or the other, she hasn’t done anything morally wrong by failing to tell him. She’s just made a mistake. Depending on the circumstances it may have been a very stupid mistake, but being stupid is not a sin. As I said before, if she did not intend to trick him then it was just a misunderstanding, and there’s nothing immoral about an honest misunderstanding.
Then by all the Gods of Wood and Stream, what exactly are we arguing about?
:smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack:
Honestly, I probably have misunderstood or misinterpreted what you were saying somewhere along the line. I thought you were saying that she was under no obligation to tell him she was transsexual even if he had no reason to suspect that she might be. I am so sorry. I am going to go slink under my clueless shelter now.
:wally (meaning me…I’ve always wanted to use that smilie.)
Ah, well, you were partially right there. I don’t base my moral judgements about her behavior on what he believes, but rather on what she believes. If he has no reason to suspect she’s a transsexual but she doesn’t suspect that he doesn’t know (or she wrongly believes that he doesn’t care either way), I don’t think she’s morally obligated to bring it up. It would be pretty foolish of her not to make sure as she should know that some men would react very badly if surprised in such a way, but if she honestly misinterpreted the situation then she hasn’t done anything I’d consider immoral.
Where I think I really confused you was when I said:
And I meant that. I might be a little angry, but mostly because I’d be embarassed to have made a mistaken assumption about her. If I thought she’d intentionally misled me about the state of her genitals I’d be pretty upset, but that wouldn’t be my first suspicion because I just don’t think many pre-op transsexuals go around intentionally fooling people that way. I mean, they must know that there are people who’d be willing to beat them to death over it. No, my first suspicion would be that the poor woman made a mistake, so I’d try to be nice about it.
Yeah they could have a few laughs regarding the faux pas over beer nuts. Am I the only one that thinks that the impetus would be on the individual with the “information” to take it upon themselves to share it with anyone who might reasonably be affected by it. If you know that odds are…someone might become…bemused at the sudden and unexpected appearance of a penis, I think that the moral obligation lays with you to “spill the beans” before it gets to the point of “an embarassing misunderstanding”.
:rolleyes: