This seems too good to be true, but I can’t find it under"Non-Diachargeable" on any of several sites (Including the lawyer I’m talking to).
Before I run up billable time, a really simple one:
I have small income and, between medical bills and a mortgage (which pegs the “predatory lending” meter), have left me unable to pay prop tax on my homestead property for the last 4 years,
Is there any way which Chap 7 could be used to discharge that debt?
I may well (SS Disability + roomie are sole income) pass a hardship tests.
While going for extra bonus points, could the B’ruptcy Judge order the mortgage to be re-written within legal limits. or would that be beyond his jurisdiction?) Mortgage company has State Charter).
I have plenty of other reasons to file chap 7, thess would just be icing on the cake.
It is my understanding that property tax is not dischargeable. Nonpayment places a lien against the property.
Ask your (or “a”) lawyer though, it’s likely not a “billable hours” question as chapter 7 filings are generally all-inclusive flat-fee and always paid in advance and every bankruptcy attorney I’ve ever met gives free consultations to sell their services.
ETA-
Rewriting a mortgage is definitely a chapter 13 thing. Chapter 7 collects all of your nonexempt assets to liquidate and divide among all of your dischargeable debts. Restructuring and cram-downs are part of a chapter 13 payment plan.
If you’re likely to lose the house, you might do well to let it go prior to filing so you can wipe out any deficiency debt once it becomes unsecured.
Thanks!
Could I initially file in 13, get the mortgage re-written, then transfer to 7 before the 13 closes?
My understanding it that, if I allow the 13 to close, I would be barred from filing Chap 7 for x years.(plus, a chap 13 would order payments on a debt I have no mathematical chance of paying)
Or: can one hop between chapters and still get (selective) portions of the original court’s findings incorporated in final judgement?
The lawyer I’m talking to is cheap, but tends to forget the answer e gave to the same Q a year earlier, Granted, it’s an obscure point, but still…
I have maybe 50K (positive) equity - I have stopped improvements to prevent any further increase in equity.
I have a homestead exemption on it (CA law) - the lawyer seems to think I keep the place unless re prices repeat the 2001-2006 (or at least 1977-1980) routine.
There’s something called a “chapter 20” where you strip liens with chapter 13 and then discharge the debt with chapter 7, but the mechanics of it all is beyond my understanding. It is used to wipe out home equity loans, I don’t know that it will work on property tax. I know income tax debt is only dischargeable if its more than three years old.
Another thing to consider is that filing chapter 13 costs $1,500 - $2,500 or more depending on complexity plus potetially thousands for a lawyer. Chapter 7 is $300 plus about $750 - $1,500 for a lawyer. Assuming you can wipe out the property tax (and i doubt you can) do you even have a large enough property tax liability to make “chapter 20” worthwhile?
Prop tax is about $5K - $6K; the main concern is an entirely different $41K lien - but if I can dump the prop tax and/or get the loan written under normal terms while I’m at it, so much the better.
I’ll have to look up Chap 20 (is that Federal?) and chat. The guy I’m talking to wants $1500 fees + $306 court costs for Chap. 7.
I’m going to run the $41K issues past another lawyer - this one started (last time we talked) saying it would not be dischargeable, but after adding this factoid, plus that bit of info, it finally hit him that that, yea, we could beat that, then a simple matter to get trid of the actual ($41k) paper.
At $1500 for running a credit report and mailing notice to everyone on the list they sure as hell can add an additional form or two (Hell, I’ll fill them out, if they want - I’ve done pro se in Muni Court before)
As someone who’s been working in bankruptcy for 15 years, I’ll just say there’s a fuckton more to representing a client than that. Pretty disrespectful - if you think it’s so easy, you can always file pro se…:rolleyes:
First mortgages cannot be forced to be rewritten under Ch 13. One of the basic rules of a Chapter 13 is that every creditor is entitled to get at least as much as they would under a Chapter 7.
Under a Chapter 7, a secured creditor is entitled to the full value of the security they own in the property. If you are upside down on a car, then the court could strip the lien down to the actual value of the car. The code says they can’t do that on a first mortgage.
Property taxes also usually act as a lien on your property and can’t be stripped for the same reasons.
IIRC, a Chapter 20 is where you first file a Chapter 7, get all of the stuff liquidated that you can leaving you with nondischargeable stuff like student loans, child support, etc. and then file a 13 to restructure all of that over time (with interest).
I don’t believe you will be able to do what you are trying. Even with a homestead exemption, a secured creditor can take it.
No disrespect intended, I know lawyers are expensive, even to simply show up and point out that there really isn’t a case stated and get a dismissal.
I am basing my comments on what the lawyer said they would do - and that, it needed, they could crank one out in48 hours.
I had hoped there was a WHOLE lot more to it than that - I have some truly ancient debts, and would like all of the old consumer credit debts discharged - NOT just the ones that still show up on credit reports and/or within Statute of Limitations.
Do they have a means to publish (in county in which contract was signed, if needed) a notice to claimants or some such, that anyone with a debt who does NOT present it within x days no longer has a debt?
If it is not just going down the credit report, what could I reasonable expect to get for my $1500?.
This is a CA capital gains of principle residence. I didn’t think cap gains was due, and the tax people couldn’t contact SSA or DMV or ATT to get my current address and kept sending me mail at the last place I’d get it - the house I sold years earlier. Since they didn’t get a response, they filed lien. Shouldn’t there be a good faith requirement?
Anyway, as stated in simplest form, this guy has twice (first contacted him 2 years ago) said non-dischargeable. Then I mention that ‘this’ little thing happened, and all of a sudden the debt becomes dischargeable, and it’s a flick of the wrist to make the actual lien go away.
As I said, I want another lawyer to see the same route this one sees.
As far as the mortgage, I suspect that the idea of the thing going before any judge might make the lender more amenable to rational terms.
That’s not the way it works. You must list all of your debts and send notices to creditors. There is no such publication you talk about.
As far as California capital gains taxes, that is above my pay grade.
But as far as the bank renegotiating your mortgage:
They don’t have to and you can’t make them.
If you have equity in their home, there is no way in hell that they will.
What do you get for $1500? Answers to these questions and a full discharge of all of the debt that you can legally discharge. If you think you can do it yourself (and, hell a lot of people do) then have at it. But if you forget something/somebody and or don’t discharge something that could have been, it will likely cost you more than $1500..
So, I dumped a bunch of consumer dept (mainly CC’s) in 1996. I do not remember all the names, let alone account numbers - do I just go through the Corporate address of every company I might owe and say “Remember me I’m Joe Bloo and my soc is 123-45-6789. I’m filing Chap 7. Let me know if I own you anything?”
I’m guessing the lawyer will do that for the people who are still on the report plus any I provide.
Should I give the name and address of every bank?
Now, I I can wake up before 16:00, I might get something done.
You probably don’t have to worry about stuff from 1996. I’m not sure of CA law, but most states’ statute of limitations are far shorter than that.
But otherwise, yes, it is your responsibility to know who you owe money to and the amounts. I don’t have the code book in front of me, but you can be denied a discharge if your finances are in such disarray that you don’t have proper records of who you owe what to.
So definitely call a company you think you might owe money to. Tell them that you are getting your finances in order and want to know the account numbers and the amounts. Include everything you could possibly imagine.
For example, did you have a dispute with a landlord or something that was never resolved? List it because the claim goes away even if it hasn’t been litigated.
The CA Statute of Limitations is 6 years - they can’t touch me - I am (mildly) concerned if they could go after (hypothetical?) estate. The debt discharged could not come back, but simply running out SofL, as I understand it, leaves the debt forever.
Should a Bankruptcy Atty be expected to trace these down, or is it, as I expect, just going through whatever hasn’t yet rolled of the credit report?
Consumer credit entries (credit cards, (in 6 E-Z payments. Buy Here! Pay Here! (private payment contracts)) will roll off the report, and will not be subject to lawsuit - they can’t sue you, dock or garnishee, etc - but THEY DO REMAIHN valid debts until “discharged” - either by paying them off (dream on, bankers), bankruptcy, private litigation, whatever).
So the (JC Penney was one) I dumped in 1996 cannot sue, can’t harass, etc. - but they CAN present a bill to my estate (yea, like there is going to be one).
If, in a May 2013 Chap 7, I list JC Penney (who rolled off and became dead in 2002) as a debtor (and get it right), they have no right after my estate - if I don’t list them, they can pop up as soon as my SSN shows up on the “hey! These folks are now dead and here’s where to send the bill from 50 years ago (plus interest!)” feed*, my estate gets nailed.
no I don’t know if such a feed exists yet, but given the magnitude of the $ involved, somebody’s going ot get one together.
The SOL runs against you and your estate. If a contract is outside the SOL, it can’t be enforced against your estate either. But still list it if you know about it just to clean everything up.
And, again, no. It isn’t your attorney’s job to track down everyone who you owe money to. There is no registry of that, and only you know (or should know) to whom you are in debt.
Also, usually approximate amounts (depending on the trustee and the judge) are acceptable. If you list, J.C. Penney, Account # unknown, 2001-2004, Amount: $5000 to $15000, it’s better than not listing at all..