Oh, good, I guess people figured it out.
I think what you say here applies to many situations, but I question its relevance to a case involving several adult men receiving oral sex from an adolescent. If anyone was taken advantage of here, it was Gwen Araujo. Even setting the age gap aside, I don’t think anyone getting a blow job from a stranger at a party has any right to expect that stranger to share any personal information. I don’t see how anything beyond “I have oral herpes” would even be relevant in such a situation. Trust and openness go along with relationships, not just unzipping your fly.
Well, I think the ‘critical failure’ here was Ms. Araujo’s choice to perform oral sex.
I’m sorry, but again, if I have some secret that will have possible significant negative perceptions and reactions in a social situation, I don’t do things involving it.
I collect Transformers. However, I don’t think first dates are a good time to bring up this hobby. While harmless, it may make many people feel that I am immature, or childish. Therefore, I don’t mention my collection, I make sure I don’t have boxes in my car, and I don’t pause at nearby toy stores to see if something came in.
Likewise, if you are of unconventional gender, I think that casual sex is probably a very bad idea. More so than it is for people of conventional gender. On the other hand, I also think that casual sex is not a very good idea for persons of conventional gender, for similar meanings. I’ve seen news stories of similar things happening. As in the recent Maryann Measles case in Connetticut.
http://www.wtic.com/cgi-bin/news.pl?display=871
and I’m sure there are others. Something tells me that no matter who Ms. Araujo was, there was going to be trouble at that party.
The point is, Ms. Araujo, if she wished to thrive, might have wanted to be a bit more careful. It was not right, what happened. But it might have been predictable.
I’ve met quite a few women by mentioning my toy collecting at parties or other gatherings. I collect toys and read comics. If you don’t like it, you’re not anyone I want to date.
Life is short. Be yourself and don’t be ashamed of it.
I only wish it was safer to be yourself.Whew
I waded through this entire thread. (I glossed over a few parts, I admit. My gosh, it’s 5 pages so far!) I had to find out what the big stink was about, because I could not understand what would be so controversial about expressing dismay over this poor person’s murder. It seemed pretty cut-and-dried to me. It was horrible, and evil, what these guys did to Gwen. No excuse whatsoever.
But, other topics have come up, and I’ll just add my two cents on various issues:
[ul]
[li]Try to be polite and call people what they want to be called. If they want to be called a “she” even though they were born (technically) a “he”, try to do so. You don’t have to accept or believe that they are a “she” in your heart (we are not the Thought Police here) but it’s just one of those niceties that makes social interaction a little less stressful.[/li]
[li]If someone forgets to use “she” but instead uses “he”, it’s possible that they mean no great harm, it’s just their ignorance of the issue. Some people rarely encounter such issues, and are easily flustered, or get confused. Let’s face it, it’s still a confusing issue (as this thread can attest) to a high percentage of people.[/li]
[li]To many people, it matters to know these delicate details before engaging in a personal/sexual/romantic relationship. No, the milkman and the postman don’t have to know (unless they are about to be intimate) but before sex (or a serious encounter) begins, they oughta know. Because it might matter to them, and they have the right to decide whether they want to “opt out” before they go ahead. [/li][/ul]
My hunch (I have no proof) is that Gwen was not forced to have sexual encounters with these men. My hunch is that Gwen allowed them to think that she was born a female, and that she knew or assumed that there was no question in their minds that she was born a female. My hunch is that Gwen should have used more prudence regarding her dealings with these individuals. Not that Gwen deserved to have a damn finger laid on her because of her lack of prudence.
It’s so scary and sad that Gwen’s deceipt had such dire consequences. (Once again, I’m assuming that she was deceiptful, but I have no proof.) It shouldn’t have had such consequences. Gwen was a kid. I’m assuming that she didn’t think ahead, or got in over her head. Why would she anticipate that her deceipt (if that is what she did, and it is my hunch that she did) would be a death sentence? It’s horrible, tragic, and my heart breaks. My heart breaks for even sven’s friend, who just wants to be a girl. This whole thing is heartbreakiing, no doubt.
But as long as evil men such as the murderers of Gwen are roaming the earth, people like Gwen (and even sven’s friend) have to be especially mindful and careful. And it’s NOT FAIR that they have to be so extra careful and prudent, but that’s the (sucky) world we live in.
FWIW, I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and pretty much figured out that you just got confused on names.
KellyM, chill the fuck out. There was NO need to jump on E-Sabbath for getting NAMES confused.
**
If it was her choice. I very much doubt that Gwen Araujo was the foul temptress some people here have painted her as. I’ve seen the way pretty teenaged girls are treated by certain types of men, and the men involved in this case were clearly no gentlemen. If they weren’t above beating a defenseless teenager to death I’m sure they weren’t above using pressure, coercion, or even force to get a blow job out of her.
I agree that Gwen was in a situation that would have been dangerous even for the average teenaged girl and was probably much more so for her. She would have been wise to exercise more caution for her own good. What bothers me is your earlier suggestion (and that of others) that Gwen’s behavior was not simply naive, foolish, or dangerous, but morally wrong because she was taking advantage of people who trusted her. Forgive me if I don’t shed a tear for those poor, poor men who were perfectly willing to get a blow job from a stranger and then perfectly willing to beat her to death when they discovered she wasn’t everything they thought she was. If they were so damn picky about who gave them head then they should have limited themselves to sexual partners who they were romantically involved with, or at least knew.
Foul temptress? Hardly.
Morally wrong? I don’t know. Morally questionable, yes. Then again, I consider casual sex morally questionable.
Still, that’s a good point, and one I didn’t consider. The ‘rules’ of casual sex, versus the ‘rules’ of relationships. The ‘rules’ of casual sex seem to be something on the order of, “Did one of you come screaming? Then it was good. Did one of you come? Then it was good enough.”
So, I suppose, by the rules of casual sex, if you wind up getting a blow-job from a man (No, not an intersexed person, someone clearly homosexual), then it was a bad night, but you probably asked for it.
Stands to reason, I suppose.
Sorry, I’ve been on vacation and missed the Russian hostage rescue that this thread has become . . .
I’ve been emotionally and mentally female for 45 years, socially female for 25 years and physically female for 24 years (longer, I might add, than some of you have been alive). I guess I am still not “female enough” for one or two of you, but I am old enough not to let that bother me in the slightest. I know there are also some who disapprove of me because I am an atheist, or from a Jewish background, or American. Feh. I should worry.
Oh, by the way, now you can see why I stopped dating about ten years ago . . .
Eve, if you don’t mind, and it’s really not incumbent upon you to respond, but what is your opinion on all this? I’ve been curious myself.
When should you let someone know of your history?
I hate to think of it like an STD, but I’d think that it would be a good rule of thumb. Or maybe marriage… no, you’d want to tell someone you were married before you started dating.
Are there, in your opinion, different rules for casual sex?
So there are three identities?
Sex–determined by chromosomes and genitalia
Biological gender–determined by a small area of the brain mentioned earlier in the thread
Social gender–??
There are men (XY/penis) who have preferences for activity and behavior that are considered “feminine”; they may be called effeminate men, not women. Does this mean they have a male sex, male biological gender, and female social gender??
Lamia, you say that you were mistaken for a man but people who really knew you, knew you were a girl. What attributes would tell them this?
I see Eve’s post on preview; so does this mean:
Sex–genitalia
Biological gender–area of brain
Social gender–how presented to others??
I guess I still don’t know what it means to “be emotionally and mentally female” or male, unless certain emotions, etc., are termed feminine or masculine, and I thought those types of stereotypes were what we had been fighting all these years.
I think it means that you think of yourself as female. You look at women and think, “I am like that,” you look at men and think, “I am not like that.”
Shit, Eve, anyone who would tell you otherwise is just being a jackass. You are a lady, and it shows.
Guinastasia- Try and look at this from Kelly’s position. You and I are manic depressive. Imagine the viewpoints in this thread applied to bipolar affective disorder.
Poster#1 “It’s all a show you put on. Guin bitches about how hard life is so that she can get sympathy and handouts. She just says ‘I’m manic depressive.’ and she gets an easy ride. DocCathode says he’s on SSI because he can’t work. He whines about how horrible everything is. The truth is that he’s sitting home, playing video games, watching TV and laughing at us. There’s nothing wrong with Guinastasia or Doc, they’re just lazy and too cowardly to live like adults.”
Poster#2 "Manic Depression is very real my friend/spouse/etc has it. How dare you say that the pain and suffering they go through doesn’t exist? Did I imagine the time (name here) spent 3 straight days curled up in the fetal position in a corner of the bedroom? Did I imagine that when we found (gender here), (name here) hadn’t moved-not to eat, not to change clothes, not bathe, not to go to the toilet-for three days?
Poster#3 “Guinastasia and Doc have real mental problems. They are not faking or lazy. They do not live this way because they like it. Of course, if they spent a month or two living with me, I could cure them. That serotonin stuff is bunk. It’s purely psychological. I’d give them discipline instead of coddling. That would fix them.”
To sum up- #1 doesn’t get it at all. You try to tell them of the great sadness and the gray fog. They don’t believe a word. #2 gets it. Finally, somebody understands what your going through. Finally, somebody believes you. They haven’t been through what you have, but they know that you aren’t lying or mistaken when you tell them. I’ve found #3 to be the most painful. A friend or relative will seem to understand. You get all the positive feelings of acceptance and validation that you get from #2. Then, they reveal that they really don’t get it. They believe your problem is something else. You can’t convince them that they’re wrong. They say they know your problem better than you do.
In such a thread, you’d be sad, angry, and defensive. If a poster might be a #1 or a #3, you attack them because they can attack you. You might end up attacking innocent bystanders, or people on your side. But years of dealing with unsympathetic people has taught you to keep your guard up and not relax for a minute.
Eve-Hmm. So besides being inteligent, eliquent, and a published author, you come from a Jewish family. This leads me to ask the question-How you doin?;j
Oh, dear, that is the $64-million question, and I am very tired and not feeling very well today (I had better not be coming down with the flu).
I don’t really have to deal with all that anymore, as being a slightly stout middle-aged lady puts one out of the Dating Zone. Back when I did date—during the McKinley administration, I think it was—that was a touchy issue. Do I aquaint my date with my history the moment we meet? First date? First kiss? Just before or just after sex? After we’ve been together a month, or a year? There was never any one answer; it depended on the fella and on what kind of relationship we had. I might add I was with one guy (thrice-divorced) for three years and he never knew. He found out later and called me to say, “congratulate your doctors!”
Just today, coincidentally, a gentleman smiled at me on Park Avenue and said I was pretty. I winked and said “thanks” as I passed. Should I have said, “but hold—I must aquaint you with my surgical and chromosonal history, lest your heterosexuality be threatened and you are forced to beat me to death?”
Guinastasia- Try and look at this from Kelly’s position. You and I are manic depressive. Imagine the viewpoints in this thread applied to bipolar affective disorder.
Poster#1 “It’s all a show you put on. Guin bitches about how hard life is so that she can get sympathy and handouts. She just says ‘I’m manic depressive.’ and she gets an easy ride. DocCathode says he’s on SSI because he can’t work. He whines about how horrible everything is. The truth is that he’s sitting home, playing video games, watching TV and laughing at us. There’s nothing wrong with Guinastasia or Doc, they’re just lazy and too cowardly to live like adults.”
Poster#2 "Manic Depression is very real my friend/spouse/etc has it. How dare you say that the pain and suffering they go through doesn’t exist? Did I imagine the time (name here) spent 3 straight days curled up in the fetal position in a corner of the bedroom? Did I imagine that when we found (gender here), (name here) hadn’t moved-not to eat, not to change clothes, not bathe, not to go to the toilet-for three days?
Poster#3 “Guinastasia and Doc have real mental problems. They are not faking or lazy. They do not live this way because they like it. Of course, if they spent a month or two living with me, I could cure them. That serotonin stuff is bunk. It’s purely psychological. I’d give them discipline instead of coddling. That would fix them.”
To sum up- #1 doesn’t get it at all. You try to tell them of the great sadness and the gray fog. They don’t believe a word. #2 gets it. Finally, somebody understands what your going through. Finally, somebody believes you. They haven’t been through what you have, but they know that you aren’t lying or mistaken when you tell them. I’ve found #3 to be the most painful. A friend or relative will seem to understand. You get all the positive feelings of acceptance and validation that you get from #2. Then, they reveal that they really don’t get it. They believe your problem is something else. You can’t convince them that they’re wrong. They say they know your problem better than you do.
In such a thread, you’d be sad, angry, and defensive. If a poster might be a #1 or a #3, you attack them because they can attack you. You might end up attacking innocent bystanders, or people on your side. But years of dealing with unsympathetic people has taught you to keep your guard up and not relax for a minute.
Eve-Hmm. So besides being inteligent, eliquent, and a published author, you come from a Jewish family. This leads me to ask the question-How you doin?;j
[Eve hurriedly checks her clothes]
Which women? Like what? I guess I have to leave it as undefinable, but you know it when you feel it?
I’m not trying to be obtuse, but it really is hard to explain. I suppose it’s one of those “if there’s nothing wrong you don’t notice it” things. How do you explain the flu to someone who’s never been sick? I guess you’ll just have to trust us that this is a real condition, we did not just “make it up,” and really, no one would go through all this if they didn’t have to.
You know, Shodan, I for one got the point you were making about honesty in relationships about five pages ago.
Where you have gone 100% totally wrong is in comments like
then you’ve left me and everybody else well behind.
What’s been said here amounts to, “There are people who feel inside like they have been living a lie in meeting a social standard based on the form of genitalia they were born with, and, like everyone else who notes that there are things in his/her own life that he/she doesn’t like, set out to change them, by living the life that corresponds more accurately to the truth they know about themselves.” That was the point to my long post over on page 5.
I do take the point that Eddie/Gwen was questioning his/her identity and switching back and forth between roles prior to the time of her murder. To me, that seems to be the process of sorting out what the truth really is, when social norms are pushing you in a direction opposite what you yourself feel to be right for you.
I could be wrong on this. However, from what I’ve been able to put together on the particular case, you’re completely out to lunch on what seems obvious to everyone else – that someone can feel themselves to be something at odds with what “everybody knows they are.” In a small way, I can identify with that based on my own childhood and the social expectations I didn’t meet.
If people grant your point – that Eddie/Gwen may have misled some boys as regards their expectations of someone apparently a girl – can you grant theirs – that she believed herself to be a girl saddled with a boy’s body, and acted according to those beliefs, not with an intent to mislead but rather to act out the truth about herself?