Another Brandon Teena . . .

[Lamia]

*Originally posted by gigi *
**Lamia, you say that you were mistaken for a man but people who really knew you, knew you were a girl. What attributes would tell them this?
**

Now we get to the hard questions! Honestly, I couldn’t tell you how people know I’m a woman, how I can tell that other women are women, or even how I know that I am a woman. It’s just something that I do. I’ve occasionally been wrong about someone’s gender, especially online, although oddly enough never that I know of in the case of a transgendered/transsexual individual. That is, I always pegged them as the gender they identified as. On the other hand, I’m usually pretty good at identifying men who adopt a feminine persona online just for kicks.

**
I guess I still don’t know what it means to “be emotionally and mentally female” or male, unless certain emotions, etc., are termed feminine or masculine, and I thought those types of stereotypes were what we had been fighting all these years.

**

I personally am of the belief that individual human variation is great enough that it is impossible to say that all women are inherently one way and all men are inherently another way in terms of behavior/psychology. This may be why I don’t really understand transsexualism – I’m not the most traditionally feminine of women myself, yet I’ve always felt like a woman and not a man. I think I can imagine feeling like a man, but it’s a different feeling from the one I normally have about myself. But maybe that’s just the point. I don’t have that certain “woman feeling” just because I do some things that are traditionally feminine, and I’m sure I don’t have it just because I have a vagina. I feel very strongly that I am a woman, but I couldn’t tell you precisely why.

So if someone who was born without a vagina says that they have the same “woman feeling” that I do, well, who am I to say that they don’t? I suppose there might be some people who would just be pretending, or mistaken, or plain ol’ crazy, but I can isolate no cause of my own “woman feeling” that would make it completely impossible for anyone born without a vagina to feel the same way.

[gigi]

*Originally posted by Eve *
**I’m not trying to be obtuse, but it really is hard to explain. I suppose it’s one of those “if there’s nothing wrong you don’t notice it” things. How do you explain the flu to someone who’s never been sick? I guess you’ll just have to trust us that this is a real condition, we did not just “make it up,” and really, no one would go through all this if they didn’t have to. **

I’m not either! although it may appear that way. I have female body parts from birth, I present myself as a woman (albeit with short hair and almost never wearing skirts), and I would assume I have a female gender. But I can’t tell you what that last means. I should be able to understand what you mean by “feeling like a woman” right, since as far as I know I am one? Or is it just so ingrained and in line with my biological makeup that I don’t even think about it?

I just think that as soon as you try to define what it means, you get into “what’s a real woman?” and limiting how people can be in society. If I said, I know I am a woman because I like to craft and cuddle infants, well, there are women that don’t like that and men who do, and neither gender should be expected to, or kept from, crafting or cuddling infants.

I guess I will remain mystified and just try to listen to others. My apologies if I have come across as ignorant or stubborn on this; my questions have been in the spirit of understanding, as clumsy as they have been.

[Lamia]

*Originally posted by gigi *
**Lamia, you say that you were mistaken for a man but people who really knew you, knew you were a girl. What attributes would tell them this?
**

Now we get to the hard questions! Honestly, I couldn’t tell you how people know I’m a woman, how I can tell that other women are women, or even how I know that I am a woman. It’s just something that I do. I’ve occasionally been wrong about someone’s gender, especially online, although oddly enough never that I know of in the case of a transgendered/transsexual individual. That is, I always pegged them as the gender they identified as. On the other hand, I’m usually pretty good at identifying men who adopt a feminine persona online just for kicks.

**
I guess I still don’t know what it means to “be emotionally and mentally female” or male, unless certain emotions, etc., are termed feminine or masculine, and I thought those types of stereotypes were what we had been fighting all these years.

**

I personally am of the belief that individual human variation is great enough that it is impossible to say that all women are inherently one way and all men are inherently another way in terms of behavior/psychology. This may be why I don’t really understand transsexualism – I’m not the most traditionally feminine of women myself, yet I’ve always felt like a woman and not a man. I think I can imagine feeling like a man, but it’s a different feeling from the one I normally have about myself. But maybe that’s just the point. I don’t have that certain “woman feeling” just because I do some things that are traditionally feminine, and I’m sure I don’t have it just because I have a vagina. I feel very strongly that I am a woman, but I couldn’t tell you precisely why.

So if someone who was born without a vagina says that they have the same “woman feeling” that I do, well, who am I to say that they don’t? I suppose there might be some people who would just be pretending, or mistaken, or plain ol’ crazy, but I can isolate no cause of my own “woman feeling” that would make it completely impossible for anyone born without a vagina to feel the same way.

[Guinastasia]

I’m not bipolar, tovarish, I’m Obsessive Compulsive. But I understand.

Well, Eve, then who is the woman with the pearls and the long black hair on the People Pages?

[Guinastasia]

I’ve always looked at it this way-let’s say, there is such thing as souls and reincarnation. It would be like, the soul of a woman being reincarnated in the body of a man.

[Shodan]

*Originally posted by Polycarp *
**You know, Shodan, I for one got the point you were making about honesty in relationships about five pages ago.
**

Did you?

Because you posted the following:

*Originally posted by Polycarp *
**
I could be wrong on this. However, from what I’ve been able to put together on the particular case, you’re completely out to lunch on what seems obvious to everyone else – that someone can feel themselves to be something at odds with what “everybody knows they are.”
**

No, not in the least. I am perfectly aware that there are people out there who “feel like a woman trapped in a man’s body” or who are “of ambiguous gender” or are sexually confused, or are gay transvestites, or call it whatever you like.

Yes, some people feel that way. As was obvious from the OP. Gwen/Eddie was a person who felt that way.

I have my own opinion about what is “the truth” about people who feel that way. I don’t intend to have casual sex with people who I don’t know, so even if Gwen/Eddie sets an example for a lot of teen-agers, I don’t see how that will impact me. I don’t even think “live and let live” accurately describes my position, as I whole-heartedly condemn anyone’s actions who uses violence against such a person, even in the circumstances of the OP.

But we still bump up against this:

*Originally posted by Polycarp *
**
If people grant your point – that Eddie/Gwen may have misled some boys as regards their expectations of someone apparently a girl – can you grant theirs – that she believed herself to be a girl saddled with a boy’s body, and acted according to those beliefs, not with an intent to mislead but rather to act out the truth about herself? **

OK, let’s phrase “the truth about herself” by saying that s/he believed s/he was “a girl saddled with a boy’s body”. What difference does that make?

As I seem to be saying, over and over, if s/he wanted to play out what s/he believed about his/her gender/sex with willing, informed, consenting partners, neither I nor they would have any reason to complain. S/he did not. Withholding or concealing the information about Gwen/Eddie’s biological sex meant that consent could not have been freely given.

That, as I have said from my first post in the thread, is wrong.

Not only wrong for men, but OK for women. Not only wrong for straights, but OK for those of ambiguous gender.

Wrong.

You can’t change the rules of honesty by shaving your legs and slipping into a smart little cocktail dress. If you want the right to define who you will and won’t have sex with, and under what circumstances, and what you will believe about yourself and everyone else while you are doing it, you have to extend the same courtesy to the rest of the world.

Play out your gender however you like; it’s nothing to me. Just give other people a chance to decide whether or not they want to play along with you.

Regards,
Shodan

[Polycarp]

It sounds, then, like we’re not in disagreement, and I suspect that Kelly, Lamia, Eve, and others who read your stance as not understanding the phenomenon of transsexuality would be too.

Honesty is important. The freedom to live one’s life as one sees fit is important. Avoiding deception is important.

As I see it, your stance was that, whatever Gwen/Eddie saw herself to be, she had a moral obligation not to enter into sexual relations with someone without revealing that, from the perspective of bodily appurtenances, she was male, even though from the perspective of what she “knew”* herself to be, she was a girl.

That makes sense.

On the other hand, many people have found the stances you have taken as regards “what Eddie really was” to evince a lack of understanding and perception of how an internal identity can differ from a body-based one. (And I am floundering almost as much in attempting to grasp something I have no experience of myself, and hoping I’m coming somewhere near the truth.)

Several points, including that “depending on what sex a teenager chooses to be today” line (yeah, I paraphrased), could be seen as insulting to such people, including at least two participants to the thread. That was what I was trying to dissect for you.

IMHO, you’re entitled to think that Eve and Kelly and Gwen/Eddie are whatever you choose to interpret them as, men, women, or two-toed sloths. But your personal responsibility towards them as human beings inhabiting the world alongside you demands that you respect their understanding of what they conceive themselves to be, even while, if you choose, disagreeing with it. And the apparent lack of respect and understanding that I and others inferred from the wording of several of your posts was what prolonged the debate here.

Yes, honesty is important. So is compassion – caritas. According to St. Paul, it’s the most important thing. Hence my stance, which concurs in part with yours and dissents in part from it.

[KellyM]

Yes, I agree with Shodan as to the importance of honesty in relationships; I’ve said so before. But that is about as far as the agreement goes. What I disagree with, vehemently, is Shodan’s repeatedly avowed claim that he knows better than I do who I am.

I consider his attitude toward (preoperative) transsexuals intolerably insensitive, bordering on malicious, and tinged with the indelible aura of deliberate ignorance. He’s an insensitive lout, and I wish no truck with him and his kind. I can only thank him for having the decency to expose his fundamental lack of human decency for all to know, so that we might all know that he is truly an inhuman monster not worthy of our consideration or time.

I also disagree with his thesis that Gwen had any moral duty to announce her transsexuality to her casual sex partners. This is because I do not believe that Gwen is lying when she presents herself as female, any more than I believe that I am lying when I do so. Shodan, apparently, disagrees. In his moral world, apparently, I am condemned as a liar for the nature of my very being. I cannot countenance such a morality, or tolerate the company of one who holds it.

Honesty does not mean mandatory full disclosure. We all have facts we neglect to tell even our closest acquaintances. Only when nondisclosure will doubtlessly lead to actual harm is disclosure morally obligated. And I do not accept the mental uncertainty that transsexuals tend to create in others as “actual harm”, else I would be obliged to wear a sign for the benefit of people who are disturbed by my occasionally ambiguous gender.

I think Shodan either fails to appreciate, or is merely indifferent o, the obvious consequences of his position on the lives of transsexuals. He is more interested in preserving his own apparently shaky sexual identity than grant others the right to preserve their strongly-held gender identity. Perhaps if he dealt with his own demons he would be less prone to punish others for having dealt with their own.

[KellyM]

Yes, I agree with Shodan as to the importance of honesty in relationships; I’ve said so before. But that is about as far as the agreement goes. What I disagree with, vehemently, is Shodan’s repeatedly avowed claim that he knows better than I do who I am.

I consider his attitude toward (preoperative) transsexuals intolerably insensitive, bordering on malicious, and tinged with the indelible aura of deliberate ignorance. He’s an insensitive lout, and I wish no truck with him and his kind. I can only thank him for having the decency to expose his fundamental lack of human decency for all to know, so that we might all know that he is truly an inhuman monster not worthy of our consideration or time.

I also disagree with his thesis that Gwen had any moral duty to announce her transsexuality to her casual sex partners. This is because I do not believe that Gwen is lying when she presents herself as female, any more than I believe that I am lying when I do so. Shodan, apparently, disagrees. In his moral world, apparently, I am condemned as a liar for the nature of my very being. I cannot countenance such a morality, or tolerate the company of one who holds it.

Honesty does not mean mandatory full disclosure. We all have facts we neglect to tell even our closest acquaintances. Only when nondisclosure will doubtlessly lead to actual harm is disclosure morally obligated. And I do not accept the mental uncertainty that transsexuals tend to create in others as “actual harm”, else I would be obliged to wear a sign for the benefit of people who are disturbed by my occasionally ambiguous gender.

I think Shodan either fails to appreciate, or is merely indifferent o, the obvious consequences of his position on the lives of transsexuals. He is more interested in preserving his own apparently shaky sexual identity than grant others the right to preserve their strongly-held gender identity. Perhaps if he dealt with his own demons he would be less prone to punish others for having dealt with their own.

[Homebrew]

For the record, I concur with KellyM on this issue. If it was so damned important to the guys in this incident to not have sex with a transexual, they should have found out before they did the act, not after. Perhaps they didn’t do their due diligence. There’s no evidence given that indicates Gwen misled anyone, and under the circumstances of casual sex, she was not obligated to disclose her status as a transexual, IMHO.

I still don’t understand the claims that men are somehow damaged mentally if they get a blow job from a MtF transexual - or even a gay man in drag - thinking she was “born woman”. Who cares? Lips, tounge, sucking - it’s all good. Why worry about the bits down below?

[Guinastasia]

Perhaps none of them should have been having casual sex in the first place like that?

Personally, if the worst thing that happened to the guys is that the one who blew them was a transgender (is that the right term? PLEASE don’t shout at me, this is a very confusing issue, I’ve found!), then they’re pretty damn lucky-I mean, they could have ended up with any number of STD cocktails and the like.

Not to mention that given that Gwen was underage, they could have been found guilty of statutory rape.

A very complicated scenario.

I would think it is a dangerous road to go down, and I can’t help but think of the murder from the Jenny Jones show.

[Sterra]

*Originally posted by Guinastasia *
**Personally, if the worst thing that happened to the guys is that the one who blew them was a transgender (is that the right term? PLEASE don’t shout at me, this is a very confusing issue, I’ve found!) **

Well, I’d say I dislike the term because it sounds grammatically incorrect. It’d be like saying someone is a gay. I usually use something like a transgendered person or is transgendered.

[Guinastasia]

Oh. My bad.

Okay, the transgendered person.

Please forgive.

[Chief_Crunch]

KellyM, if anyone’s being intolerant or histrionic, it’s you. You can’t seem to grasp the fact that just because someone is not in one-hundred percent agreement with you that doesn’t necessarily mean they are a bigot, insensitive or “an inhuman monster”. For fucks sake, Hitler was an inhuman monster. Osama Bin Ladin is too. Where the hell does Shodan state that he wants all transgendered people killed?

[Ludovic]

What we really need are some new terms. When people are using the same words to mean two different things, confusion and hard feelings arise :rolleyes:

F’risntance, some use the term “racism” to mean prejudice, while others use it to mean being a member of an “oppresor class”. And some use the term “pedophile” to mean molester, other to anyone intensely attracted to children.

Half these posts would be taken care of if these terms existed.

Hawεvr, ay θIņk ðæt wil si ðIs skrIpt bikum papyulr bifor wi si camunsεns wIrdz wi nid bi Invεntid. ay i, wεn pIgz flae

[catsix]

Is it intolerant or bigoted for a heterosexual female who is attracted to people who have penises and testicles and no breasts to ask the person they’re about to have sex with ‘Do you now or have you ever had a vagina, clitoris, ovaries, uterus, or breasts?’ since the person they might in the not too remote future have casual sex with has no responsibility to volunteer this information?

If I’m only interested in sleeping with people with penises who identify as men, is it wrong for me to ask someone who has the social gender of male and an interest in hopping in the sack if he has a penis or a vagina before I get in bed with him?

[Shodan]

Originally posted by Chief Crunch -
Where the hell does Shodan state that he wants all transgendered people killed?

Let’s be fair, here. I don’t see anywhere that KellyM accuses me of saying this. FWIW, my repeated disavowals of violence seem to have gotten thru.

Regards,
Shodan

[Chief_Crunch]

*Originally posted by Shodan *
**Let’s be fair, here. I don’t see anywhere that KellyM accuses me of saying this. FWIW, my repeated disavowals of violence seem to have gotten thru.

Regards,
Shodan **

I know, Shodan, but KellyM, I believe, gets pretty close with talk of the “obvious consequences” of your opinion and how you “punish others”. There seems to be the heavy implication that your beliefs make you somehow accountable. Just my observation, of course.

[Dr.Lao]

*Originally posted by catsix *
**If I’m only interested in sleeping with people with penises who identify as men, is it wrong for me to ask someone who has the social gender of male and an interest in hopping in the sack if he has a penis or a vagina before I get in bed with him? **

I don’t see how it would be wrong for you to ask. If there are certain things that make sex with a person totally off-limits for you, I think it is wise to investigate them before you consent.

[Homebrew]

I’d say that if it matters greatly to you, catsix, it would be incumbent upon you to ask.