Well then what you are saying here goes to one of the points I made early, since CRT is about a framework and published papers why is that you are still reaching for the idea that CRTs are about “everything is racism”? The main point was BTW that you are missing that the framework is not just about race.
Even in the paper that I cited the focus of the CRT scholar is to let China know that they are actually fomenting more extremism by the ethnic cleansing that they are committing. It does not matter to the Chinese that many Uighurs look like the majority Han.
I took that from @iiandyiiii’s explanation of CRT. He did not say that exactly, but largely so. I could reword it if that would make you happier, but I think that even what he wrote overemphasizes the issue for no reason. What difference does it make exactly how much is racism or how intentional was it when we are looking at such prevalent conditions?
After reading that I got flashbacks from a poster that thought that it was really silly to investigate the quantities and the rates of fatality coming from the use of vodka among Russians. (“Why waste money and time on what we already know?”)
Turns out that investigating and finding ways to quantify the usage and the death levels of using a lot was really useful for hospitals or insurance groups.
Investigations and advances in data analysis are likely to give us more numbers and lead to better solutions about an issue, what to do with the evidence will be also a part of what other researchers and scholars involved in this are working with too.
They do this anyways. “Black Lives Matter” is pretty clear language and they made up their one narrative anyways. They’ll bust that “door” open no matter how tightly locked it is. This is what they are. This is what they do. Conservatives spread bullshit as a reflex action. The name is irrelevant.
I am not saying you said that, but your view on intent seems just as extreme. The everything is racism part came from outside and I didn’t mean to imply you said that and apologize for doing so.
However, I’ve pointed out that I think your view on intent is extreme, and that I don’t see what purpose that has to the theory. Again, isn’t there enough indisputable intentional racism to justify needing a change?
I could ask you to clarify a few other things, but as I said you have clearly stated your definition even if I don’t agree with all of it. I would like to hear what function your view on intent serves but I had to find something I knew was stated in this thread, in this case quoted from Brittanica and I’m wondering why the part below I highlighted is not part of your definition or a predominant part of anyone’s definition of CRT? From my point of view that is the absolute basis of racism, the belief that there are races and the natural result of that is the treatment of people in different ways based on that concept.
ETA: Actually you did mention that. I have to stop and come back to this to straighten everything out.
True, and sometimes not only recent memory, but present-day. And we should fight that direct racism whenever we find it. But even if we somehow managed to wipe out all of that direct racism, the fact would remain that blacks disproportionately come from poor families, and that people from poor families tend to remain poor. The indirect racism would remain.
OK, you’ve correctly identified some (though not all; there are many of them) of the underlying mechanisms through which poverty is inherited. But that still doesn’t answer the question of how to fix it. You say to fix it through “state intervention to change the norms of black culture”… But again, how? How do you change a culture through state intervention?
If we fix the systems and institutions, most of this intentional racism won’t be able to thrive and will just die off, because truly just and fair institutions and systems would recognize such intentional bias and eliminate it as a matter of course. So that’s why it’s so important to focus on the systems and institutions.
While I’m not the best-placed person to offer this advice, there are two other things you could do before you get to the three points above (and, speaking from personal experience, these aren’t remotely easy to do after the habits of a lifetime):
Listen. Listen to what generations of people who have actively suffered persecution tell you. I’m not talking about finding what one black guy somewhere is saying and extrapolating that to be representative of the entire black experience everywhere - that’s not helpful. But listen to what lots and lots and lots of black (or Asian or what-have-you) people are telling you about their daily experiences with racist bullshit, from microaggressions to outright lynchings and everything in between, and try to see things from their perspective. Don’t be one of those “allies” that “helpfully” tells minorities what they need to do to “fix” racism. Just - fucking - listen.
Realize it’s not all about you. I will admit this was a tough one for me. When people talk about what “white people” are doing, it’s hard not to say “But I’m not doing those things! Why are those people being so mean to me?”. If your automatic reaction is to demand that minorities only fight systemic racism in a way that never makes you feel bad, what you’re really saying is that your feelings are more important than the very real oppression those other people are experiencing. Which means you’re part of the problem.
Keeping things in perspective is important. Yes, it’s annoying to be lumped in with the nastier people actively seeking to discriminate against others, but is that more or less “annoying” than the fact that that discrimination is taking place? Sometimes the least you can do is to put aside some hurt fee-fees and focus on the more important issue at hand.
I’m not seeing it either. It would sure be helpful to know who specifically said that.
How do you stop people from driving drunk, or pouring motor oil down storm drains? How do you reduce rates of domestic violence among romantic couples, which used to be completely normalized? How do you change anything for the better? If your argument is “because addressing the real causes o problems is too hard we should simply end racism instead” then you have a lot of problems, not limited to the fact that “ending racism” is the same kind of massive social challenge that you’re claiming is unsolvable.
There are ways to get black religious leaders, politicians, and entertainers to stop treating child abuse as something between a positive good and inconsequential. Once it’s no longer an acceptable behavior and there’s impetus to treat it, it can be treated. Just like any other undesirable part of one’s psyche can be addressed through therapy, the inclination to hit your kids can be controlled that way - if you are willing to cooperate rather than keep saying that “I got whupped when I was a kid and I turned out fine.”
CRT will have none of this. Here is the absolutely outrageous CRT take on child abuse in black families:
*Claim that black children are at no higher risk for abuse than white children (absolutely contrary to every aggregation of data and no argument for failing to intervene on behalf of the black victims that exist)
*Claims that black parents are incapable of abuse and only “systems” commit abuse
*Repeated insistence on “cultural awareness” that the idea of not hitting your children is “whiteness”
So we end up with the absolutely shameful spectacle of three people who were able to become university professors precisely because they had the kind of family environment that doesn’t destroy children’s futures, two of whom are just about as white as snow, proclaiming that we need to be more sensitive to the needs of black people by allowing black children to be abused. This is Critical Race Theory at its most manifest.
What on Earth is your alternate interpretation of Thing.Fish’s post in which he or she not only took a list of examples of “causes of problems for black people that aren’t racist white people scheming against them” and labeled making the list racist, but copied the list verbatim from my list of examples of things that we would be able to talk about if only CRT advocates would admit that non-racial causes exist?
This is the post you’re characterizing–in quotes–as “you’re not allowed to talk about this, the only explanation is racism for racism’s sake, anyone who disagrees is a racist”, correct?
Yes, the post where I listed several factors other than racism that cause problems for black outcomes, and the immediate response was “this is racist” followed by an inadequate definition of racism and a bunch of “apparent claims” attributed to me that resemble nothing I’ve ever said.
Again, the irony that my list was taken verbatim from a post in which I specifically said CRT enthusiasts are incapable of admitting that non-racial causes exist without calling people racist for discussing them is apparently lost on some people.
Once again, you’re almost certainly misrepresenting people you consider to be political opponents. The closest I could find to your first claim is the sentence, on page 271, that “The typical African American child is not at greater risk for abuse and neglect than the typical White child”, and cites a study that I can’t find online. That’s significantly different from what you claim, but since you didn’t quote the specific part of that 8-page document that you are paraphrasing (thanks btw for not putting your false paraphrase in quote marks, that’s progress at least), I’m not certain that this is what you were referring to.
I didn’t bother looking at any of your other claims about that document, given the falsity of your first claim.
There’s no irony there whatsoever. The irony, of course, is in your apparent belief that proponents of CRT don’t discuss these things–a belief that could only possibly be held by someone completely divorced from actual discussions among antiracist activists. What separates you from antiracist discussions, what makes your discussion of these factors a racist approach, is that you appear to contextualize these issues in a way that blames Black culture.
Thing.Fish did not say what you claimed. Your persistent use of false attributions to your opponents makes discussions very difficult.
Is it possible, in your view, to identify “a problematic behavior that is more common among black people than white people” without “blaming black culture” and therefore being racist?