A couple of mods have asked that I start a thread here, and given the tremendous interest the original thread generated, I’m willing to do that. However, I would ask that personal comments, and attempts to guess at the state of mind of any of the contributors, are absolutely avoided.
As a starting point for debate, I’d like to take Shelby Steele’s book White Guilt : How Blacks and Whites Together Destroyed the Promise of the Civil Rights Era. In the blurb, George Will writes that the author shows ‘what went wrong when whites for their reasons and blacks for theirs, embraced the idea that white guilt explains blacks’ problems and can be the basis of polices for ameliorating them’.
He goes on to ask: ‘What happens when our national policies are derived from white guilt and black anger rather than the universal principles that free societies aspire to - freedom for the individual, rights for all individuals, equality under the law, equality of opportunity, and an inherent right to “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?”’
Let’s keep the debate civil and focus on the issues, not the personality or the styles of the debaters. Any comments that people would like to direct at the person, I respectfully request be placed in the forum dedicated for ad hominem attacks, the BBQ Pit.
I am particulary eager that those who have suffered the most from racialism and bigotry, i.e. the Blacks/African-Americans themselves, contribute. This is another reason why I ask that the debate be carried out in a measured and civil manner.
I don’t think you can have a civil, non-abusive discussion on race. But since you asked, I would say in my own personal life it doesn’t really play a big role. I feel blacks who consider themselves ‘true blacks’ and not oreos have more or less chosen to seperate themselves from white society and have created a mentality that succeeding in the white mans world is a form of Uncle Tomming. So I feel that blacks are choosing not to integrate and whatever problems that causes aren’t really my fault.
I think white guilt plays a huge role. It’s very difficult to discuss the state of race relations in the U.S. because of it. Black leaders are very skilled at using the race card to deflate the arguments of their opponents. Disagree with Jesse Jackson? Get accused of being a racist. The white opponents buy into this and shut up, letting Jackson and his ilk win. This is not the way debates should be settled. We should discuss the merits and demerits of an issue and not question the motives of those advocating that issue. Unfortunately, on race issues this often does not happen because people are afraid to fight back and call BS when called a racist.
Of course, this does seem to be changing. A new generation of black leaders – such as Harold Ford of Tennessee – seems to be eschewing the race card to actually talk about issues. This is a welcome change. Whenever we can move beyond the reckless use of the word “racist” will be a good day for politics in America.
What percentage of blacks would characterize themselves as “true blacks”?
If this percentage is not 100%, how you can possibly justify that last sentence?
What exactly is “true black”, by the way? I’m black and proud, don’t consider myself an “oreo”, but I have not chosen to separate myself from white society*. I function quite well in society, as a matter of fact.
*I prefer “mainstream society”, since the world is full of non-whites as well as whites…and non-whites dictate the cultural norms for a society just as much as white people do. I don’t think assimilation requires being more “white”–it requires being more “mainstream”. I think using precise language is important in this thread if we don’t want tempers to get flared.
White guilt is this masochistic thing, some people just really get off on it. And then there’s black people who won’t miss a chance to throw blame or the race card, and the whole cycle just perpetuates itself. I think it will be slightly less common as my generation and those that follow continue to move up the societal food chain, but it’s still surprising how many of my contemporaries are basically willing to spend time feeling sorry for or basically apologizing for stuff they didn’t do.
It also seems to embarrass the shit out of most of the black people I’ve known, when someone essentially condescends to them by being extra-sensitive, or being all Mister “Let’s Talk About African-American Issues.” It seems like there’s at least one in every crowd that makes you want to apologize for the “sensitivity,” like the white people are retarded or something. Although I will admit it is kinda funny to see black people get cornered by white people who will go waaaaay out there in order to find ways to mention Chapelle and MLK and christonlyknowswhatelse.
So I guess that’s what I can say. White guilt is bad enough that when I have black friends around I’m not ashamed of them, but I’m often shocked at (if slightly amused by) how guilt-afflicted whites will treat those friends.
Of course, none of this is discussed in public, political discourse. I don’t think I’ve ever heard a mainstream politician use the phrase “white guilt.” So you can see how this sado-masochistic social arrangement hasn’t exactly resulted in great open dialogue on American race relations.
So white guilt is both prominent and counter-productive, in my opinion. But people like it, so it stays. Don’t ask me why, because I honestly don’t get it.
An odd statement to start a debate on “white guilt”. You are assuming that Blacks have suffered the most from racisim and bigotry, which sounds like something a sufferer of “white guilt” would say.
Blacks in no way have the market cornered on racisim and bigotry. There is not a minority that have come to this country that hasnt been perscuted because of their race. From the native americans, to the Irish getting off the boat, the smaller your group, the more you are put down.
Grant it, those other groups were not forced abducted from their homeland and forced into slavery. I agree the blacks in this country have had a longer road, and bloodier, than most, but by putting them in your opening statement you are not asking about true racisim and bigotry in this op. You want to talk about black vs white issues… which is fine, but you should just state that. As “white guilt” could also be labled with native american treatment as well.
Wait, people can’t get away with disagreeing with Jesse Jackson? What fantasy world are you living in? He’s subject to more ridicule in the media than almost any other political figure. Al Sharpton is probably even more roundly disliked than Jesse Jackson. Even most of the people in the super-liberal circles I tend to hang out in are not exactly fond of Jesse Jackson.
As far as I’m concerned, this is sheer nonsense and it’s just one more example of white men feeling sorry for themselves. If any prominent public figure has been roundly disagreed with, criticized, and ridiculed in the media, it’s Jesse Jackson.
Are you arguing that racism no longer exists, and thus doesn’t merit discussion anymore?
Perhaps I was careless with my words. Of course Jackson is criticized and many people disagree with him. Many people get called racist when they do, however. Many others who disagree with him, such as white liberals infected with white guilt, would never think of criticizing him in public.
I guess my point is that those who suffer from white guilt refrain from disagreeing with black political leaders for fear of being labeled racist.
It exists, but it is certainly not a barrier to anyone’s achievement in this country. Our nation would do much better to focus on real problems instead of focusing on the last vestiges of racism.
I honestly have not seen that; no doubt someone has accused people of racism for disagreeing with Jackson, but I certainly haven’t seen anyone take it seriously.
I would argue if I felt up to it and had citations at hand; suffice it to say that while this has become essentially common knowledge, I would disagree rather strenuously with it.
Im arguing with that statement in an op that is supposed to be about how white guilt affects racism. If the op wanted to know how white guilt affects blacks, than he should have just asked that.
But to your question, no, I dont think blacks have suffered the most. Native americans have it by a long shot. And if you want to look world wide…the Jews have everyone beaten in that regard. Not now maybe, but look at their history and nobody has been perscuted more.
Makes you wonder tho why we dont hear more about Native American suffering than we do Black suffering.
Given the subject matter of the original thread (the historic use of the word “Negro”), “white guilt” seems like a curious direction to steer the debate. Are you suggesting that white guilt was responsible for “Negro” falling out of favor?
Perhaps it would help clarify if you could expound upon what you meant by this statement from the previous thread:
Yeah, what exactly is “white guilt” in your opinion?
There’s a big difference between personally feeling “guilt” about the way in which blacks ended up in the U.S. (that is, through slavery) and being conscous of the historical aftermath of slavery. The effects of 500 years of slavery are not simply erased after emacipation, a civil rights act, and the relatively short period of a century and a half. People who say “Hey, there’s no more slavery and we have legislation that makes everything equal; blacks have no more reason to talk about race any more; the playing field is even now; that’s just playing the race card, etc.” are either naively idealistic or are just unwilling to recognize that the dammage slavery caused still has ramifications today. It has nothing to do with any one person’s racism or attitudes towards blacks personally. Whether you feel “white guilt” or not is irrelevant.
This is an example:
Saying “the last vestiges of racism” reflects this attitude: “We’re sorry we enslaved you, but it’s all over now, everything’s okay now. See! There’re even some blacks in the president’s cabinet!” The problem is not about racism on the personal level, but the ecomic devestation that slavery created, and the consequences of it which still affect blacks today. It is a deeply entrenched problem.
What makes you say that it’s the blacks who are choosing not to integrate? Maybe it’s the whites who are choosing not to integrate. There’s nothing to stop whites from living in black communities, is there?
King actually started to address the issue of class over race (and Vietnam, as well). That’s about the time he got assasinated.
I find it curious that while the OP specifically warns against ad hominem attacks, the premise itself is just such an attack. Rather than discuss a specific policy (affirmative action?), the poster has redirected the argument to the supposed state of mind of those who argue for some (unstated) position.
No, it’s not. I’m not sorry for anything. I didn’t enslave anyone (and neither did anyone else in this country).
I simply don’t think so. The legacy of slavery is not the reason for the high illegitimacy rate in the black community or the low educational performance or any other problem in that community. There is nothing stopping an individual black person from succeeding if he or she has the desire to do so. Of course, if that person buys into the cult of victimology, and if white guilt prevents others from calling “bullshit” on that victimology, then the person has no chance. If the black community keeps blaming its problems on others, then it will never emerge from the conditions in which it finds itself.
Except for the fact that many black communities have high crime rates. Beyond that, they are fine.
Agreed with the first statement, not so much with the second. However much we like to pretend otherwise, while racism itself isn’t an operative factor (much) anymore, attitudes common to racial bigotry, institutional discrimination and general racial bias still present real, widespread and sometimes insurmountable barriers to getting everything from job consideration to loan consideration.
Racism tends to be overt, hateful and violent. Bigotry is often insidiously covert.
Concerning white guilt, my feeling is that whites in my generation/ age group increasingly feel they have nothing to feel guilty for, as they did not personally participate in racist actions against blacks and do not feel any responsibility, moral or actual, to atone for past discrimination. So white guilt may still exist, but it no longer fuels policy.
Agreed with the first statement, not so much with the second. However much we like to pretend otherwise, while racism itself isn’t an operative factor (much) anymore, attitudes common to racial bigotry, institutional discrimination and general racial bias still present real, widespread and sometimes insurmountable barriers to getting everything from job consideration to loan consideration.
Racism tends to be overt, hateful and violent. Bigotry is often insidiously covert.
Concerning white guilt, my feeling is that whites in my generation/ age group increasingly feel they have nothing to feel guilty for, as they did not personally participate in racist actions against blacks and do not feel any responsibility, moral or actual, to atone for past discrimination. So white guilt may still exist, but it no longer fuels policy.
I’ll agree with you to a certain extent. There are certainly racists who exist and they certainly affect individual black people. A racist cop who stops an innocent black person and harasses that person is an example of how racism is hurting an individual but how it has little affect on society overall.
In terms of how racism affects job consideration, loan consideration, etc., I’m not so sure racism is at play. There is a correlation between being black and having something negative happen in the course of looking for a job, looking for a loan, etc. Correlation is not causation, however, and when a black person gets turned down for a job or gets a high interest rate on a loan it is not necessarily because that person is black. It may be because that person doesn’t have good interview skills or has bad credit or a number of other factors. Blaming bad things that happen to black people on racism is a misuse of the word. Do bad things happen to black people because of racism? Sure. I just don’t think it’s as widespread as some in the media or in black leadership like to portray.