So, if the playing field is level, then why are black people on the whole poorer, less educated, and more likely to be criminals and the victims of violent crime?
You allude to “victimology”, but why black people are less successful just because they feel falsely “victimized”? In your view, they have the same opportunities as white people, correct? Then why do black people choose not to take them?
To me, I don’t see any alternative than that your statement supposes some sort of inherent flaw in black people - that they are, in your view, lazy enough that they would rather sit around and feel sorry for themselves than achieve the things that they easily could. I don’t see any logical outcome - if we accept the premise that black people have the same opportunities as white people, and then examine the outcome - that black people are poorer and less successful than white people, then the problem must be some inherent flaw in black people that leads them to be less willing to work and achieve the things they could. Essentially, if the playing field is level, then racists are right - black people simply are less capable or less willing to work hard than white people.
Which is why I think that view is logically untenable. My set of assumptions would start with this: black people are not inherently less intelligent, less hard-working, or more inclined to criminal behavior than white people. If they don’t achieve as much, then, it must be because of some sort of societal problem that prevents them from doing so. Obviously the nature of that problem must be examined further to fully elucidate the problem.
I just don’t see any logical alternatives. Black people are less successful than white people. So either they are being held back in some way, or they are inherently less capable of success. Which is it?
There was an interesting study that examined the effects of race upon home purchasing; I wish I remembered the authors so I could cite it here. In short, though, black couples purchasing homes were matched with white couples in areas like credit history, income, education level, and even more cosmetic factors like the way they spoke and dressed. The study attempted to minimize every confounding factor they could in comparing white and black couples. When they tried to purchase homes, the black couples were either turned down for mortgages or offered higher mortgage rates (despite being financially comparable to the white couples.) They were shown fewer homes by real estate agents; the homes they were shown were more likely to be in predominantly black neighborhoods. At every step in the process, black people received inferior service to white people. The studies’ authors noted that economically, this could be summed up as a “black tax” on home purchasing of several thousand dollars. They also noted that it doesn’t take a society of racists to create institutional racism - since the black couples had to deal with dozens of different people when they purchased homes, running into one or two closet bigots was enough to make a substantial difference in their success at purchasing a house. There’s lots of similar research out there that suggests that this oft-repeated maxim that blacks and whites have it equal is simply false.
No, it’s not a matter of an “inherent flaw” in black people. It’s nothing genetic. It’s cultural. It’s that a certain segment of black culture does not value success or defines success in a different way. I grew up among poor whites and it’s the same culture that is present there – short-term thinking, poor financial habits, poor choice in mates, etc.
Not genetics but culture.
No, racists think it’s a genetic component. I deny that. Black people are just as capable as anyone. Many grow up in a culture that does not reward success, however.
We both agree it is a societal problem. Where we differ, however, is that I see it as a problem within the community and you see it (I think) as a problem imposed by a force outside the community.
It’s a false dichotomy. A group can fail without being held back by another group or without being genetically inferior.
Renob, in addition to the study referenced to by Excalibre, there was a study showing how resumes with “black” names were rejected as much higher rates than resumes with “white” names.
There’s also been studies showing linguistic profiling. Real estate agents, potential employers, and loan officers hae been shown discriminating against black people based soley on the way they sound.
These kinds of studies point to subtle yet pervasive discrimination that can be detrimental to people’s lives. No, it doesn’t mean that an individual can blame discrimination for all the problems they face–or even most of them. But as long as we have evidence of real discrimination occurring, I don’t think it’s fair to tell potential victims of it to “stop whining”. It’s easy for whites to say this when they aren’t the ones who’s resumes are trashed for having the “wrong” name.
I’ve never encountered a person I feel is wracked with “white guilt”, but I have mets of people who are unreasonably defensive when race becomes a topic of conversation.
And they demonstrate that racism can exist covertly - it’s not necessary for racist graffiti to show up on people’s houses or burning crosses in their lawns to create substantial hardships for black people.
Me either. I’ve come to think of the phenomenon as something along the lines of “political correctness” - basically an easy tool for people to dismiss liberal or progressive viewpoints. I’ve certainly never met a white person who felt guilty for it - but it’s easy to make a concern seem less valid if you just chalk it up to silly liberals and their bleeding-heart ways.
Another irony I’ve seen in discussions about this is that I find myself constantly on tiptoes to avoid offending people - specifically, to avoid offending white people taking the conservative view. Disagreeing with them is often, in my experience, a sure way to get accused of calling them “racists”, whether one does so or not. It’s something that makes this issue extremely difficult to discuss in any kind of substantive way.
I think this is a good point. Now, I’m white, so I’ve never experienced any racism, per se. But sometimes I do tend to feel like I have to go out of my way to prove I’M not a racist, or what have you. And I don’t blame anyone for that-it’s just I think a result of the society we live in.
I think people have cast “racist” into a special category, reserved for the worst of the worst… Someone who’s a racist is a Really Really Bad Person, someone who usually self-identifies as such and has hatred in their hearts. I think that’s way too limited a definition. I think most racists aren’t even aware of it, which means there’s always going to be a residual sludge of racism in our society. I think someone can be a racist and actually love people who are in the “inferior” race. They can welcome them with open arms in one venue and block them out in another.
I’ve admitted to harboring my own anti-black prejudices before, even though I’m black. Once I confessed on the board that I thought a black guy sitting in on my graduate seminar was a homeless bum, only to find out he was a math professor. If I can have negative prejudices against black people and I’m a proud, black woman, why shouldn’t I be skeptical when people claim racism is not that big a deal?
Unfortunately, racism is a worldwide blight. It would take a monumental effort for the world to point the fingers at themselves and do some examining.
People are people. I don’t care what color they appear to be. I also recognize that not everyone lets themselves look past that/can look past that.
Bringing this question up could be proof that the problem is still there, as well.
We can point to our own (American) society and say “Hey, look! No racism!”, but the people living with those blinders on unfortunately have to grapple with the facts that prisons seem to be a clearinghouse for young black men and that property values drop when black people move into neighborhoods. The problem is systemic and needs to start having everyone treated equally.
It makes me sad to hear some people who either are genuinely racist or people who don’t know they are a little racist. One of my best friends’ families is super-Christian. They’ve got a friggin chapel built on their home. Yet, when you get their family together in the comfort of their home, they spout racial epithets.
I don’t disagree with you here, but I also know no good way to argue it, so I generally don’t bother. I’m guessing that “If you don’t want to be called a racist, stop spouting racist ideas” isn’t the best way to go on this one.
That used to be pretty normal in the south, I think. Maybe it still is. You can still kind of see it in old southern women talking about how cute black babies are.
In fairness, many math professors can easily be mistaken for homeless people.
Let’s be clear that not all black culture is broken. There is a certain culture in this country among both blacks and whites that is broken. The culture commonly associated with Rednecks and the ghetto is the same culture and it has the same pathologies. I grew up in a poor white rural area that has the exact same problems I saw when I moved to a bad area of Washington, D.C.
monstro, those studies prove very little. Steven Levitt of Freakonomics fame has thoroughly debunked them:
Least Original Name Ever, I disagree with you that just because “prisons seem to be a clearinghouse for young black men and that property values drop when black people move into neighborhoods” means we are a racist society. I reject the notion that young black men who go to jail do so because they are black and locked up by a racist judicial system. They go to jail because they commit crime. Property values don’t simply decline because of the color of the people moving in – they decline or go up because of the quality of the people moving in, whether black or white.
I disagree with this point here. When you see a bunch of white people congregating on a sunny day on the sidewalks, one thinks “Wow, I live in a really nice and neighborly place.” But when one sees that same group excpet they are Black, one gets the urge the cross the street and starts wondering why the place has gone downhill so fast. We have a very well reinfornced concept of what a “nice” neighborhood looks like that is played out a hundred times a day in the media, and even just a few black people walking down the street or enjoying their front yards can shatter that. It’s just one of the little racisms in our society that I think affects almost all of us to some degree- the difference is we can fight against those thoughts.
All the time people come to my neighborhood and say “Wow, what a nice neighborhood! I didn’t know there were nice neighborhoods llike this in Oakland.” What they really mean is “Wow, there arn’t a bunch of Black people around. I thought Oakland was full of Black people. This must be a nice place” Little do they know we are one of the higher crime neighborhoods. They arn’t basing their assesment of “nice area” on facts, they are basing it on a few glimpses of the people living there.
Perhaps I didn’t go into it as far as I originally wanted. People are in jail because they (presumably) cause crimes. It’s a sad fact that an overwhelming portion of the inmate population is of a minority race.
As far as property values go, it’s something my mother told me when I was young and didn’t understand why. Googling a little bit shows that it’s not definite whether or not the phenomenon actually happens. I’d like to know definitively if it is real or not, however. If anyone has some concrete information, I’d love to hear it.
Excuse me, Renob, but I read Freaknomics. He did not debunk the study I linked to. He debunked the “conventional wisdom” that blacks are held back because of their names. He presented convincing evidence, but he did not dissect the particular findings of that study. And he did not debunk the other study I referenced to either.
Those studies prove exactly what they show: discrimination happens. The researchers don’t claim that discrimation happens 99% of the time. They just document its existence.
It’s not necessary for you to downplay accounts of discrimination to make your point.
This reminds me of my parents’ experience when they bought their first house. The neighbors were angry that the old home owners sold to them, and said that they’d rather have “white trash” move into the neighborhood (their words, not mine). They had a small child, who would come over and repeat things he’d overheard. A few years later, after they realized my parents weren’t going to rob them or something, the neighbors felt comfortable enough to offer them one of their spare house keys (hey, it’s a small town), and said that they considered them family, and were so glad that they moved in. When my parents bought another home and moved away, the neighbors were sad to see them go, and still invite us to their get-togethers.
On the first point: an enormous number of young black males are locked up for committing drug crimes in which the laws target drugs popular among black kids with harsher sentences (meaning more time in jail), the enforcement is targeted toward black neighborhoods (because the harsher sentences means that the enforcement agencies look more heroic for having busted “heavier” crimes), and the courts are more likely to impose those harsher penalties on kids who cannot show up looking “suburban.”
Property values decline when more people are looking to sell than are looking to buy and the presence of new black families continues to cause white families to look to “get out” (setting up their own financial disasters by creating a buyer’s market). (This situation is much less of a problem than it was 30 years ago, but it still exists.)
As tomndebb pointed out, dropping property values “fulfill the prophesy” of the seller’s fears. A couple of black people move into a place, wary neighbors fear a threat to their neighborhood and start selling their homes. Then everyone who can get out–including the first black people to move in–leave so they don’t lose out on their investment, and eventually all the property becomes available to the lowest common denominator and you see a rise in crime.
Then the white people, driving past their old neighborhood while on their way to the ball game, shake their head and wonder when did everything fall to shit.
Try coming to Oakland. Just the other day my neighborhood watch group proposed a campaign to shut down three local “problem businesses” with phrases like “do we need this in our neighborhood”. These businesses are the only predominately Black businesses in our rapidly gentryfying area.
Where? Because I’ve read the book twice - and he mentions that study, but he didn’t really disprove it. As I remember his argument, it was something along the lines of “Maybe Roshonda is less likely to get an interview, but if her name was Rose she’d just end up attending the interview and not getting a call later.” (Name taken from the title of that chapter, “A Roshonda by any other name”.) I don’t recall any sort of empirical support for it - just that bit of speculation. Which I find plausible, but not ultimately convincing: while a true-blue bigot is liable to deny the position to either Roshonda or Rose, but while black people probably occasionally experience that sort of bigotry, more subtle forms exist as well. It’s perfectly conceivable to me that, for instance, Rose might attend the interview and impress the interviewer, who is not so much a straight-up bigot as someone who is a bit prejudiced. Roshonda might have too, except she was never given the chance. At any rate, the authors of Freakonomics never really debunked the study as far as I could tell.
The stuff about property values is interesting to me, as a student of urban planning. It’s definitely a well-documented phenomenon, though I’m not certain as to the status of recent research. “White flight” was a common enough issue to receive a snappy name a generation ago; I don’t doubt that the situation has improved some, but I’ve seen no evidence to suggest that it has disappeared. One of my own pet theories is that racial tension is one of the most significant factors shaping the American city today. The openly racist use of property covenants to ensure that black people couldn’t move to a neighborhood was abolished within living memory; my opinion is that to a very large extent still-legal tools are used to keep suburbs and exurban areas white. I think that, for instance, the use of minimum lot sizes - which essentially make a city inaccessible to the lower middle class in the guise of preserving a community’s “way of life” are a covert tool to preserve its demographic character.
That’s the problem with examining racism today - overt racism is socially unacceptable in most circles, but evidence like the various studies discussed in the thread suggest that racism is still a very real phenomenon. It’s just become less visible, which makes it easier to hide your head in the sand and imagine that it’s no longer a problem.