White America

Great Debates
1

Hey everyone, I have been a lurker for awhile, but recently registered. Something happened to me at one time that really pissed me off, and the thread about the Caucasion Club brought back the memory.

I was doing a paper for school on affirmative action and reperations, I had capatilized both Black and White when referring to races in my paper. My White teacher told me that I could not capitalize white, b/c it is just not right. However, I needed to keep “Black” capitalized. I didn’t change it. There is no way I am going to be ashamed of my race.

My question is do you feel rascism is being set back again, but this time with Whites? We afterall, have the NAACP, Miss Black America, Black only scholarships, BET, Black award shows, and so much more. I do not understand why Black people have to seperate themselves? And please do not say “Well everything is White.” Hasn’t Miss America been Black for the past 2 years or so? I have no problem with that, but I don’t understand why White people cannot have any organizations, or we would be racist. We do not have White only scholarships at my school. And in fact the only Pre-Law organization is for Black only members! I It just makes me so angry that we are still judging on skin color, but now the tables are turned. I am not a racist, I support all races, I just don’t know why I should feel ashamed to be White! I am proud to be White and wish I could do something for the number of White people who feel the same way. I don’t want to hide who I am.
Can someone answer me this?

2

Your question has been answered a million times on this board.

But I won’t make you feel bad for asking it again.

If you really believe having “black” things (BET, black scholarships, black clubs, etc.) are racist then you should be equally peeved at ALL organizations that are built around equally superficial criteria. Like, Asian-American beauty pageants. Or Spanish television channels. Or Irish-American social clubs. Or entitlement programs for disabled persons. Or sororities/ fraternities geared towards Jewish students. Etc. Etc.

Everything isnt white, but this society is more orientied towards whites than blacks. There is no evil conspiracy (at least, not necessarily) that explains this ; there are simply more white people in this country than black people. If you are black, you are constantly reminded of your difference. When was the last time you had to walk up an aisle in the grocery store labled “White hair products”? Is the lack of such signage the result of anti-White racism?

Last week I went to a national conference in my field of expertise. I counted several “obvious” non-white people out of the 1500 participants. Three of those non-whites (not including myself) were black. We stuck out like sour thumbs. Guess what? Once, a small group of us and others (10 people, tops) decided to come together socially and we called ourselves the American Association of Black Estuarine Scientists. We’ve had a single meeting, way back a couple of years ago, but guess what? I still see some of those same people I met back then. No longer do I have to be the lonely, black wallflower during the social events at the many conferences I go to. I can latch on to a friend–who has shared my experiences as both a scientist and as a black person–and be not-so-uncomfortable when I’m at a conference, sticking out like a sour thumb.

Why would white scientists in my field need a special setting to meet one another when they dominate all of the meetings, all of the time? What special issues do they need to talk about? How do they feel excluded in their field? “Minority” organizations aren’t set up to exclude others. They are set up so that people from a certain subset of the larger community can share and experience their culture.

If you really believe white people don’t ever get a chance to experience their culture, then set up a White organization. Just be ready to explain yourself, since it isn’t obvious why such an organization is needed right now.

3

Your teacher’s being silly, but I find a lot of things to be proud of other than my skin color because I have, for the most part, the luxury of not being defined by it. That’s the crucial difference.

4

The fundamental flaw in these “why can’t white people have white organizations like black people have black organizations” arguments is that “white” organizations are not the correspondents of “black” organizations. The correspondents of “black” organizations are ethnic organizations, such as those for Italian Americans, Irish Americans, the aforementioned Armenians etc. Many such organizations exist, and no one would object to you starting another one. Start a Celtic culture club or a Norwegian- American discussion group, and you won’t hear a peep from the NAACP.

And as Biggirl and others have pointed repeatedly on these boards, there are special scholarships for people of specific ethnic backgrounds - Czech, Irish, Italian etc.

The reason the NAACP and others object to “white” organizations is that “white” doesn’t refer to any specific historical or cultural background, the way that say, “Ukrainian” does.( Start a Ukrainian club or a Ukrainian scholarship fund or a Ukrainian TV network, and no one will object. )

“White,” in cultural terms, has historically been a repository of privillege and a justification for denying basic human rights to those who don’t fit the definition of “white.” A definition, interestingly enough, that has changed over time. A good book to read on this subject is Noel Ignatiev’s How the Irish Became White.

(The whole issue of race as social construct vs. race as a biological phenomenon has been hashed out endlessly on these boards, so I’ll leave it alone for now.)

One could argue that the American defintion of “white,” the generic white person, actually works against the study and appreciation of real cultural and historical heritage. This takes away the real historical, cultural, and regional differences that exist between Americans and subsume them all under the mantle of whiteness. The Scandinavian Lutherans of the upper Midwest just aren’t the same as the Scots-Irish Baptists of the Southern uplands, and these folks are quite different from the Irish Catholics of the Northeastern urban areas. It’s quite a stretch to claim that these folks are basically the same, that is, all “white” people, and that they have a common heritage that is not also shared by black Americans.

There’s little to be gained in envying black America’s distinct institutions. Most of these began in times when black Americans were excluded from mainstream institutions. When black Americans begin to acheive parity in mainstream institutions, the distinctly black institutions will fade away - many are fading already. These distinctly black institutions are primarily concerned with overcoming the serious problems that still exist in black America. If you would emulate these institutions would you also take on the history of abuse and persecution that made them a neccessity?

5

I think the above example you gave is a bad judgement call on your teachers behalf, capitalizing White and Black seems appropriate to me.

I will throw something into the pot… perhaps racially exclusive groups are hindering rather than helping to bring us all together. The argument can be made that the inequalities of the past are in the past and societies opinion of racial equality has shifted into concensus. These groups might be interpreted as a way of teaching the old segregation thinking to a new generation.

I suspect our generation doesn’t face the same type of racial prejudace our forefathers did. We die for a reason - and one benefit of it is that things are forgotten. Perhaps we need to look forward instead of backwards.

At the risk of hijacking this thread, is it just me or why is this always a Black and White issue? There are many more colours and ethnicities than Black and White. Funny thing is, Black and Latino communities seem to be more vocal, but Indian and Chinese seem to be less so… yet apparantly more successful at building a life in US/Canada and ensuring their childrens generation is more educated/well paid/successuful . This of course, is my personal observation. I wonder why?

6

The reason some people (particularly academics) capitalize Black and leave white lowercase when describing racial groups is the notion that in the context of the United States (or UK or Canada) there is a “Black culture”, or Black experience in general while “white” is a much broader label that applies to the majority. I think the effect is racist in tone, as we tend to associate capitalization with importance. But the original academic intent is the capitalization of a ‘proper noun’. Your teacher probably learned the rule without really understanding the rationale.

For example, speaking of “Black Music” makes at least some sense. Most black American music shares roots in the blues and can be placed on a ‘family tree’. Can this be done with "White music? Can we really even define “white music”, other than saying it is any music that isn’t tied mainly to some specefied “non-white” minority group. This is why to me “black” seems to be a rather specific label(like “Irish”, “Jewish”, “Chinese”), while “White” is basically a rather faceless label. Of course if you aren’t of a single ethnicity, but generally mixed between several European nationalities, what other label can you use?

And sadly, most people that have adopted the banner of “White Pride” tend to be of the very racist or neo-nazi ilk. So it makes it hard for a reasonable sounding person (like the girl who wishes to start that “Caucasian Club”) to be taken benignly when using such a label.

Anyway, I have a hard time seeing what commonality a “white identity” can be based on. I have a hard time defining “white” in some cases. I sometimes waffle on whether I am “white” or not. The different minority groups are rather explicitly defined, and what is ‘left over’ sort of is “white” by default.

7

i think that in general organizations that promote minority agendas are more acceptable because the agenda is that of the minority. promoting a “white agenda” is more likely to be considered racist because white america has the power of the majority to follow through. if no one promotes the minority agenda, we end up with a tyranny of the majority, whereas if no one promotes the majority agenda we end up with, more or less, the majority agenda.

i think monstro emphasizes this point. white people don’t need to organize to look out for their rights, voting as a majority does it automatically. also, they don’t need a social group in which they aren’t defined by their skin color, because they aren’t in general. and non-whites tend to be, in american society.

i also think BelowJob2.0 makes an excellent point about how specific ethnic organizations are more acceptable than “white” organizations, because “white” is sort of just another word for “the majority of races in the usa.” and promotion of the tyranny of the majority (i.e. minority oppression) is pretty much a despicable thing.

8

Why don’t you explain why these groups warrant a comparison without using the meaningless term “minority”? The latter two groups are transoceanic immigrants, one is a group of continental immigrants (guess how cheaper & easier it is to walk across a border than it is to cross an ocean) who aren’t even doing so badly either, and the other are descendents of slaves in their own country (I didn’t realize blacks (i.e. doubt your authority) that were doing so badly in Canada). Why not compare the health of the nation of Finland, the NFL, and Nintendo Ltd. while you’re at it?

9

There are plenty of middle class and educated, blacks and Hispanics out there, quietly living their lives. I think the Hispanic population is skewed by the poverty of immigrants. An Asian immigrant is most likely from the upper crust of his home country, the masses of Indians or Chinese could never afford to make it here. Just travelling here is several years of pay. However the poorest Latin Americans can come by bus and foot.

Anyway I think the “vocal” race baiters people are a rather small but loud minority. People notice Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson, but fewer people in America would recognize Congressmen Harold Ford Jr. or Henry Bonilla. Yet those latter two ‘minority’ have a lot more political power within the establishment. But since they don’t demagogue, they don’t get anyone’s attention.

10

It’s reverse racism, and yes, it does exist. For instance, I was looking for a job at the RCMP when they had an office in my home town. The officer told me if I wanted a job, I would either have to be a woman, part of a visible minority, or have a degree and be bilingual. If I go apply for a job where they need a certain number of ethnic people, I will lose out the job for no other reason besides I’m white. I don’t think discriminating is good in any situation, but it is true that white people do experience it. I was talking to a HR officer, and she made the same comment.

11

Yes.

Most white American music shares roots in the blues and can be placed on a ‘family tree’.

12

Belowjob2.0, loved the post. Answered very nicely many questions I’ve had concerning The United Caucasian College Fund and others.

But if being WHITE is meaningless in the sense that it doesn’t" refer to any specific historical or cultural background" in the way a white subset does (Ukranian, Irish, etc.), and therefore not properly considered an ethnicity by its collective self, then is not BLACK also meaningless for the same reason? Africa is not now, nor has it ever been (assuming a great unifying African Ur-Culture has slipped past the archaeologists) a culturally homogenous place. I have never seen a United Bantu College fund, nor a similar organization for Bushmen or Fulani. The only unifying event for most Blacks in America seems to be slavery. And if this is the case, a similar unifying event for Whites would be the oppression, famine & persecution suffered by our ancestors in the Old Country. Same argument could be made for the ASIAN (No, are you Chinese, Korean or Japanese) and HISPANIC (No, are you Spanish, Portugese or Mexican?) “ethnicities.”

Mehitabel “but I find a lot of things to be proud of other than my skin color because I have, for the most part, the luxury of not being defined by it.” Very glib, but it touches the core (I think) of the cause of a lot of trouble. As long as one group celebrates its difference from all the rest, it will be treated as different. And the results are almost always violent or unjust.

13

Waaaahh…the poor white people. :frowning:

Always being made to feel “ashamed of their race.” What a drag. :rolleyes:

14

Not really. While blacks were imported from many different peoples in Africa, they all went through the same “breaking” process to separate them from their original cultures and they were then placed into a separate subculture within the U.S. It is not a matter of them sharing “only” slavery, but a matter that slavery was much more than simply being forced to work without wages, actually encompassing every aspect of their lives (and the lives that they created for themselves under the noses of the majority population).

Regarding Hispanics, there was a thread just a couple of weeks ago exploring the fact that there is, in fact, no “Hispanic” culture, with immigrants from Mexico and Central America maintaining a culture quite separate from immigrants from Puerto Rico who maintain a culture quite separate from immigrants from Cuba. “Hispanic” is a Census Bureau catch-all that really has no bearing on discussions of culture, or even minority status.

Asians currently have a few “pan-Asian” support groups, (although there are far more groups that focus on mutual support for immigrants from China or Japan or Korea or Vietnam, etc.). However, those pan-Asian groups tend to have been formed in response to the majority white habit of lumping everyone with an epicanthic fold into some vague group to be treated the same. (E.g., the Detroit area autoworkers who beat to death a man of Chinese descent because they were mad that “Japanese” were “threatening” their jobs and the idiot judge who gave them a wrist-slap sentence on the grounds that they had been “provoked” to their action by Japanese imports.)

15

The OP references the Caucasian Club being proposed by the High Schooler in Oakly, CA. As I noted in the thread of that subject, whites now make up less than 50% of the population in the SF Bay Area, of which Oakly is a part. I’m not too familiar with the demographics of that particular town, but anyone who lives in the Bay Area knows that there are many school districts here in which whites are not a majority. It might well be that some white high schoolers feel somewhat (and I emphasize somewhat) the way that traditional minorities have felt in a “white” dominated culture.

Anyway, I’m no big fan of any of these ethnic type clubs. I like Monstro’s idea (from the other thread) of forming American clubs.

16

Don’t get me started on Harold Ford Jr. I live in Memphis, and he is an ass! Some of our local radio stations talk about him and say all this bad stuff that he has done lately. As far as I am concerned he is a piece of shit. The news aired a video clip of him one time yelling at Congress and standing up and ranitng and raving, b/c they had not come to a decision and the next day was a holiday. He told them he wasn’t coming, he don’t care if he supposed to.
He was the only one to stand up and make an ass of himself! Al Sharpton would be better than him, or anyone!

17

Why?

18

Why? I think they foster seperateness more than integration. When I was in school, we had ethnic theme houses and I never saw much come out of them that helped bring people together. How about a club explicitly formed with people of different races and/or ethnicities in order to develop better understanding between the groups?

I’m not saying I see the ethic groups as bad, it’s just that I think we need to work more on coming together in this country than on spintering apart.

19

A lot of the vehemence I’ve seen against minority-focused organizations stems from ignorance and wrong assumptions. I’m reminded of an incidence I had in middle school. A white guy in my class, upon noticing me reading Richard Wright’s Black Boy, immediately said that the book was racist and scowled at me as if I was racist by association. Now this comment was produced in such an obviously knee-jerkish manner that I was forced to conclude he was an idiot with some kind of neurotic “blacks are as racist as whites and I can prove it” agenda. Anyone who has read that book knows the book is not racist. It is an autobiographical account of a black boy coming of age in a racist time. It was in no shape or form the Turner Diaries my poor ignorant classmate was making it out to be.

And that’s how it is a lot of time. People hear any mention of racial/ethnic/cultural affiliations and they automatically want to call them racist or exclusionary. But last time I checked, forming a club around any trait, interest, hobby, or political persuasion is by definition exclusionary, because people who don’t have the trait, interest, hobby, or political persuasion usually are not allowed to join. So using the “it’s not fair because people get excluded” argument should apply to all such organizations.

But that ignores the fact that a lot of race/ethnic clubs DO allow “outsiders” to join. The NAACP, for example, has lots of non-black members. White people make appearances on BET as well. White writers are also allowed to write for black publications. So the only thing about most of these organization that is “racist” is the fact that race is involved.

20

I think separateness is not necessarily a bad and evil thing.

At my present university, there’s an Indian Student Union. They regularly hold Indian dances, plays, and show Bollywood movies. Because many of the students at my school are Indian, this organization provides a refuge for them. It also allows interested non-Indians a way to emerse themselves in this particular culture.

For the life of me I can’t see how this is a bad thing.