This time not OCD related. My stuff is good, just wondering what would happen if an outlet had only both neutrals connected on one side and both hots on the other side
as in both the brass and silver having neutrals and then brass and silver having black(hots) wires on each side. I wish the NEC manual showed examples of mistakes.
Illustration;
Both neutrals on this side on brass and silver screws----> (8(:-)-(:-)8) <----both hot/black on this side on both brass and silver screws
Think of it as the left outlet only hooked to neutral and the right outlet only hot?
I am NOT going to try it, but I am just curious what would happen? Polarity reversal at least? outlet won’t work? or big sparks and booms? Insta-breaker trip?
Anyone ever tried this or seen this? Its the kinda thing I made sure I didn’t screw up when I got my place together, but it makes me wonder if others have and the result or lackthereof
By “both” neutrals and “both” hots, you mean the neutral and hot conductors that connect this receptacle to the next receptacle? That is, you have a black conductor from the service panel and a black conductor going to the next electrical device?
The two “brass” screws are normally connected to each other (unless you remove the jumper). Same for the “silver” screws. Therefore, the neutral and hot would be swapped for receptacles further down the branch circuit.
Remember, for the receptacles further down the circuit, “hot” and “neutral” have no meaning except for the source they are connected to. They are just black and white (normally) conductors until you connect them. In this case, you are connecting the white conductor to a “hot” terminal and the black conductor to a “neutral” terminal.
Result: some receptacles that are not properly polarized.
If I’m understanding your diagram correctly, you’d instantly blow the breaker as soon as you turned it on. You are effectively shorting the hot and neutrals together, twice.
The two brass screws are usually connected together electrically, and the two silver screws are usually connected together electrically. By putting a hot wire on one screw and a neutral on the other, you’ve effectively created a dead short.
If you remove the tab that connects the two screws electrically together, then you will no longer blow the breaker as soon as you turn it on. However, anything plugged into that outlet won’t work because there’s no voltage differential between the hot and neutral connections in the receptacle due to the way that you wired them. Any outlets further down the chain won’t work either because you won’t have a connection between the two hots and won’t have a connection between the two neutrals unless something is plugged into the outlet, and even if you do plug something into the outlet the other outlets further down the chain still won’t work properly because the load on the first outlet will effectively be in series with them.
Even in this latter case, nothing bad will happen unless you plug a very old two-wire device (made before about 1960 or so when the grounding scheme in the US changed) that has a metal case or exposed metal parts that are connected to the neutral. Modern electrical devices use the protective ground instead. The device plugged into the outlet with two hots will have its exposed metal (expected to be connected to the grounded neutral) connected to the hot wire, and becomes a shock hazard if you touch that metal and touch something else grounded.
But yeah, as long as you didn’t break the tabs that connect the upper and lower sockets together electrically, you’re just going to blow the breaker as soon as you apply power, and that’s it.
They would be swapped further down the circuit? what happens to the receptacle where these shenanigans originate? I think I am just having trouble describing this; i’ll give it another go. There is an outlet facing normal, Vertically, and there are two neutrals connected to the top socket, and two hot connected to the bottom. That is the neutral wires are both taking up a brass and silver screw, and the next socket below has the hot wires taking a brass and a silver screw as well. So there are only white wires on the top of the outlet, and black wires on the bottom part of the outlet. Both hot wires are connected to both the hot and neutral terminals, and both neutrals connected to the hot and neutral terminals. The end result is just mixed polarity? no fireworks or an outlet just not working? I keep thinking one outlet on the duplex receptacle would hot and the other would not work at all?
EDIT engineer_comp_geek go to the post before i replied, negate the above
Thats exactly what I meant. Pretty much if two hots are connected to one side (without the tab) nothing will power up at all because there is no neutral return to complete the cycle. and if the tab is in place and a neutral and hot share it, it instantly blows the breaker. Correct?
Thanks for the replies! I suppose its pretty much impossible to wire up a house this way then, since nothing would effectively work at all lol.
Side question. Are pigtails necessary? or just for convenience? I remember when I did my place the wall boxes were too small and there wasn’t enough room to fold the wires+nuts back there, unless I went the backstab option (no way in hell). I had to wire them directly to the receptacles. Is the only drawback of this that if one outlet goes down, the rest in the series shall do the same until the culprit is replaced? I believe the NEC said they are not required, but just curious from the everyman’s point of view.
Switches and outlets have two screws with a tab connecting them electrically specifically so that you don’t need to use pigtails.
The advantage of not using pigtails is that it’s faster and easier to make the connections. It’s just two screw terminals. And because you have fewer connections, you have fewer potential points of failure, increasing the reliability.
The benefit of pigtails is that if the outlet itself goes wonky, it only affects that outlet and doesn’t affect any downstream outlets on the same circuit.
Some people think that pigtails are more reliable because without a pigtail you are relying on the outlet to complete the connection. The reality of it is that the tab making the connection is a thick enough piece of metal that the connection is reliable and solid. Reliability isn’t an issue if you don’t use pigtails.
My personal preference is not to use pigtails.
One case where you really need to consider pigtails is when you have aluminum wiring. There was a copper shortage in the 1960s, so homes built in the late 60s and early 70s often used aluminum wire instead. This type of wire can have connection problems that develop over time, and other than completely re-wiring your home, often the best solution is just to add copper pigtails to any connections.
Correct.
ETA: And as far as backstab outlets are concerned, they may be to code, but I will never, ever, have one in my house. “No way in hell” is a good attitude to have about those, IMHO.
OK, I’m an electrical contractor and now you’re confusing me. Let’s step through this…
First, the duplex receptacle has brass screws on one side and silver screws on the other side. There is normally a tab connecting both brass screws to each other and both silver screws to each other. If you don’t remove the tab, each brass screw is electrically identical, serving both receptacles. Right so far?
Second, you have two black ("hot) and two white (“neutral”) conductors coming into the box. One black is the ungrounded current-carrying conductor from the service panel. One white is the grounded current-carrying conductor from the service panel. The OTHER black and white conductors are from a device further down the circuit. There is (normally) NO current whatsoever on these second conductors. Their purpose is to carry current from your duplex receptacle to the next device. Touching them, or shorting them together, won’t do anything at all (as long as your circuit is wired normally).
Third, if you remove the tabs and make the connections you describe, one receptacle will be live and the other will be dead. Remember, one of the receptacles is wired to a set of conductors that does NOT originate from the electrical service panel. It has no current or voltage at all.
Fourth, if you do NOT remove the tabs, you will have one black and one white conductor on the set of brass terminals and one black and one white on the set of silver terminals. Therefore, the devices further down the circuit will have reversed polarity. Again, there’s nothing magical about the conductors being black or white…it’s what they are connected to that makes them the hot or the neutral.
Now, I guess it’s POSSIBLE that you are talking about two hots (fed from the service panel) and two neutrals here, but that seems very unlikely. Your basic duplex receptacle has two conductors from the service panel and two going to the next device. (I’m not counting the equipment grounding conductor.)
That’s how I was reading this. With the tabs removed, the all neutral outlet would do nothing. The all hot outlet is a different story. If both hots are on the same phase you’ll have no potential. What it’ll do to various things you plug in, I can’t say for sure, but stick a meter from line to neutral and it’ll say zero.
The other option is two hots from different phases. Now you have 240volts. That will break most things you plug into it. I bet your table lamp gets really bright first.
I think you are misunderstanding how he is saying he’s connecting them.
There aren’t two hots. It’s a normal situation where you have the feed (let’s assume one 14/2 or 12/2 wire) coming from the panel and also have a wire (a second 14/2 or 12/2 wire) going downstream to more outlets.
Instead of connecting the wires normally, he’s talking about connecting one wire (both conductors of the 14/2 or 12/2 wire) to the brass terminals and the second wire (again, both conductors of the 14/2 or 12/2 wire) to the silver terminals, so that you have both black wires on top and both white wires on the bottom, assuming the screws are to the left and right.
So effectively as long as the outlet tabs are in place, you’ve dead shorted both the feed from the panel and you’ve also dead shorted the wire going downstream. As soon as you turn on the power, the breaker trips.
If you remove the tabs, there’s no live outlet, because the top outlet will have the hot feed on one side and the hot going to the downstream outlets on the other, and the bottom outlet will have the neutral feed on one side and the neutral going to the downstream outlets on the other. Unless you plug something into one of the downstream outlets, the downstream side just floats. If you do plug something into one the downstream outlets, and you plug something into both the top and bottom outlet on the miswired receptacle, then all three of these things end up in series on the same circuit, which isn’t going to work very well. Remove any of the three and you no longer have a complete circuit and no current flows. Nothing works.
I actually change existing backstab connections as I come across them.
Do not confuse these with backwire outlets where you insert a stripped wire into the back and screw down clamps on the side of the outlet (you can also wire them conventionally using the screws). These are very reliable, but are only found on commercial grade outlets (I use these in workshop areas).
engineer_comp_geek is spot on to what I was asking. Thank you.
'nother side question
Now given a different (albeit) wrong wiring scheme, what types of devices does reversed polarity adversely affect? I used to live in a place with a bunch of them, but TV’s, Consoles, DVD players and computers had no issues, nothing did, in fact. I hear this is with lamps for the most part, when they have exposed screw threads or bare housing for the threads. But most lamps have the threads encased in plastic anyway, so unless a finger slips in there, which most people avoid out of habit, what is the other adversely affected item, a toaster? I would think most people would avoid putting fingers or metal in a toaster whenever possible. What other type of devices can reversed polarity affect? I can’t really think of many.
As to backstab devices, “no way in hell” will always be my mantra, given a proper system and all (especially with metal receptacle boxes), if they fall out, maybe nothing bad will happen outside of the outlet not working, but its still a pain in the ass. I really do like those screw/clamp backstabs though, I have a few for GFCI outlets here, and they hold the wires tight. Love 'em
I see your point. I guess I’m having a hard time seeing how anyone would do this, even as an experiment. I was also a bit confused about the “left” and “right” outlet terminology (as opposed to top and bottom). But you are correct…leave the tabs in, connect both hot and neutral to the brass terminals, and you will have a nice flash.
It’s Alternating Current – the polarity switches 60 times per second. Almost any electrical device is designed to expect this. Those that contain electronics that use DC internally (computers & similar electronics) have internal rectifiers or power supplies to produce what they need from 120V AC.
The main purpose of the hot/neutral distinction is safety of users, in case of problems. Devices are wired so that the parts most likely to be touched when live are the neutral ones, same level as the ground wire. Much safer than if you touched the hot side, and happened to also be in contact with a ground level, thus completing a 120V circuit thru your body.
(Another problem with “a place with a bunch of them” is that such poorly done wiring might also have problems with the ground wires – another safety issue.)
In the U.S., the polarity switches 120 times per second, not 60. (Sorry for the nitpick.)
In addition, I really dislike the term “alternating current.” (Though I don’t blame anyone for using it since it’s so common.) IMO it should be called “alternating voltage.” Because the polarity of the current may - or may not - be alternating.
As for the hot vs. neutral distinction for a device, it matters if there is a power switch, power switching element, or fuse. If there is such a device, it’s installed on the hot side, not the neutral side.
Generally speaking, there is no “polarity reversing” possible in AC home wiring. There is however, the possibility of an alteration in the un-grounded current carrying conductor (hot) and the grounded current carrying conductor (neutral) by reversing the leads (or switching) that seems to make folks feel like they have somehow changed the polarity of their AC circuit. This is not a change in “polarity” in their AC circuit, but merely a change in the side of the load that is switched.
In answer to your last question: Such a reversal, as in adding a switch in the neutral leg of the power supply, ON ANY APPLIANCE may lead to a shock when servicing it… But it has nothing to do with the “polarity.” of an AC circuit.