Another Long Homeowner's Association Rant

I’m missing something here, then, because while IANAL, it seems to me that there are only two possibilities.

One is that the HOA has never had any authority over your property, and still doesn’t.

The other is that they’ve always had the authority to enact covenants involving your property, whether or not they call that state “membership” in the HOA. Some private organization can’t just come in and say, “Hey, we’ve made some rules that you have to abide by.” You, or your predecessors in ownership of the land, had to do that. And it clearly wasn’t you.

Sounds like the seller and the realtor may have misled you. Which would be lousy.

I’ll admit that I don’t own land, but I find the idea of covenants somewhat repugnant. What if I bought the property before there were any covenants enacted, and before an HOA was organized? Can I opt out? Or do I have to make a MAJOR production of selling my house and moving to keep from falling under one?

It seems that if a pre-habitating homeowner can’t opt out of the organization of an HOA, we have problems. Houses and property aren’t something you can just put out on the curb and get rid of. The term “yard sale” is not literal. So it seems to me that a newly organizing HOA is burdensome to personal freedom.

How do libertarians (or Libertarians, for that matter) feel about HOAs and covenants?

jayjay

Just hearing about HOAs makes me want to buy pink flamingos and garden gnomes in great quanties. :smiley:

DO NOT RUN FOR YOUR BOARD OF DIRECTORS! REPEAT! DO NOT RUN FOR YOUR BOARD OF DIRECTORS. If you win, as I did, you have a choice of becoming just like the bums you want to replace with different policies, or a fair dealer, whose time is sucked up and life is ruined by the mindless crap that goes on around HOAs. Ignore them entirely. Refuse to talk to neighbors about anything to do with the HOA.

We really need a lawyer in here, just in case, but I think the basic principle is pretty clear: private citizens aren’t governments. If there are five lots on my cul-de-sac, four of us can’t get together and say, “We’re the HOA for this street, and we can pass covenants that apply to all five houses here.”

Even if there are no specific covenants enacted (e.g. no junkers on the lawn), the legal document that gives the HOA authority to pass such covenants is itself a covenant, and unless you - or a previous owner of the property, such as the developer - agreed to that covenant, then they can’t touch you. So if you’re genuinely pre-habitating, you can tell them to go jump.

(C’mon: this board is full of lawyers these days. One of you, jump in and ascertain whether or not I’m on target about this.)

I am definitely not a libertarian, but I’ve debated with them enough to probably give a good first approximation of what they believe.

Libertarians are big on property rights and private contracts, and have no problem whatever with voluntary forms of self-government. My guess is that most libertarians wouldn’t want to live in a neighborhood governed by covenants, but they’d have no argument with the principle of them.

If I own some land, in their view, I can make an agreement with myself that a bunch of covenants apply to this land. Nothing wrong with that.

Now, here’s where I’m stepping on thin ice: it’s always been the right, in the Anglo-American tradition, for one landowner to enact restrictions on his land that apply to succeeding landowners, in perpetuity.

For instance, suppose I own a long, thin parcel of land, and only one short edge at the front is on a road. If I want to divide it into two lots and sell the rear lot, I won’t be able to ask much for it unless I provide a guarantee of access to the road, for the buyers and their successors. So I’d grant them an easement on the front lot than I’m keeping, allowing them to go back and forth across my lot to get to theirs. That easement would allow for access across my lot, in perpetuity, restricting the use of all of my successors in ownership.

AFAIK, libertarians have no problem with the right of one landowner to place restrictions on land that limit what succeeding owners can do with it. But I don’t know for sure; you’d have to ask some of them.

Succeeding buyers of the land (as I understand it) are responsible for making sure they know what restrictions are on the land; that’s one of the reasons title searches are done. But if you buy a piece of land, you’re agreeing to accept all such restrictions that previous landowners have placed on it that are in the county land records. Libertarians think it’s OK to contract to pretty much anything you want, so that step should be fine with them.

If voluntarily buying a lot means you’re voluntarily opting in to a local self-governing association, that sounds like exactly the sort of way libertarians think all government should work - by choice.

Lib? erislover? Did I get this right, or do you want to critique me?

We live in a small, older neighborhood, and although we do have covenants, we don’t have any type of HOA. Go figure.
I don’t know what would happen if, say, I decided to get a few chickens. I’m considering it, and I just figured I’d ask my two closest neighbors, as they’re the only ones near enough to even know if I have chickens or if I mow, etc.
One of my neighbors has a spic&span lawn and house, the other has a “is that place abandoned?” look. I’m happily smack in the middle with my natural wooded lot and rather long grass. We are working on cleaning up the backyard, though.

k

Oh, RT, I’m saddened that you didn’t specify me by name.

sniff

I honestly vote Libertarian (when the candidate isn’t too whack job)(really, it’s like they don’t want to win) though I think I’d be considered ‘soft’ by the hardcore party faithful because I lack the faith in human nature they sometimes seem to have.

I have no objection to homeowners associations for someone who voluntarily joins one, either by participating in the formation of one or purchasing a property with covenants that are known and spelled out. They’re just not for me.

However, if someone were to purchase a home with covenants and was not made aware of them I would consider that grounds for voiding the sale. Sort of like if the seller didn’t mentioned that the extra room in the basement just happened to be a portal to hell and satan was in the habit of stopping by for a beer every now and again. Disclosure is there for a reason and should cover covenants as well as things like asbestos and such.

I would object, strongly, to having one forced on anyone. Them’s fightin’ words. Someone tried to do that a while back in Maryland when we lived there. I had a pal at the ACLU drop them a note and they went away.

I also, as RT mentioned, have no problem with establishing covenants that exist in perpetuity. Again, as long as the sales transaction has all of this above the board it can simply be treated as a piece of baggage that comes with the land. It’s a pain in the ass but, if you want the land, you take the good with the bad.

How’s that?

Like Mr. Chance, I am also a “soft” Libertarian, and agree with covenants in principle. I live in a house with covenants, and I’d be surprised if many people who didn’t live way out in the country (I live a little bit out in the country) did not have covenants attached to their house. It’s just that most covenants tend to be of the less-restrictive variety.

I think that our covenants are defined as something like “Must employ local special district sewage connection” and “Must obtain water from special district water facility” to prohibit things like well-drilling and septic system installation. And honestly, those are about the only covenants we have.

So, covenants aren’t always bad. Unless they’re like those at my parents house, where, even if your fence is wood, and made from the correct color, if it has three rails instead of two, you’re gettin’ a lein.

Living in the 'burbs of Dallas, I am thankful we have an HOA. They (we) maintain the common areas of the community (private park, landscaped medians, swimming pool, privacy walls, etc.) and provide some level of continuity to the properties. Plus, it allows us to have the pool and park accessible to us without an undue financial burden. Anyone who has a private pool knows how expensive it is to maintain. So for $50/month, we get a pool, a big private wooded park, and some measure of surety that no house is going to fall completely to pieces.

Plus, given that about twenty percent of the people in this world are human garbage, and also given that by sheer odds I’ll be living within a stone’s throw of aforementioned garbage, it’s good to have the HOA to look out for the stuff big enough to be an eyesore, but too small for city code violations. A friendly discussion about problems among neighbors is good to have, but it doesn’t always work.

Living in the 'burbs of Dallas, I am thankful we have an HOA. They (we) maintain the common areas of the community (private park, landscaped medians, swimming pool, privacy walls, etc.) and provide some level of continuity to the properties. Plus, it allows us to have the pool and park accessible to us without an undue financial burden. Anyone who has a private pool knows how expensive it is to maintain. So for $50/month, we get a pool, a big private wooded park, and some measure of surety that no house is going to fall completely to pieces.

Plus, given that about twenty percent of the people in this world are human garbage, and also given that by sheer odds I’ll be living within a stone’s throw of aforementioned garbage, it’s good to have the HOA to look out for the stuff big enough to be an eyesore, but too small for city code violations. A friendly discussion about problems among neighbors is good to have, but it doesn’t always work.