…that has nothing to do with Obama from the other (closed) thread, so leave his story out.
Who decides when and if it is played? I mean, it seems to be played at some sporting events (but not all) and at some political events, but again, not all. Who exactly decides when and if the anthem should be played at an event?
If someone is not American, what are they supposed to do? I have a lot of European visitors and on the few, rare occasions that we are somewhere and they play the American National Anthem, they are more than uncomfortable about the process. Plus, without this getting into a side debate, most are not exactly thrilled with American policy - but then again, they are visiting here, so should they just stand up and be silent, or remain seated?
Taking the above example a step further, would you stand up for the German National Anthem if you were at a soccer match in Berlin?
I am not a big fan of overt patriotism. Don’t get me wrong - I have spent years in Europe defending America nonstop in heated conversations, but I am not a big fan of flag waving and patriotic symbols. Ages ago, I went to a Broadway show starring Mickey Rooney and he insisted that the National Anthem be played before the beginning of every performance. Almost half of the audience remained seated, and I was one of them. It just struck me as being in the wrong place, at the wrong time for reasons that had nothing to do with anything other than Mickey wanted it. Is there ever a time when the playing of the National Anthem is inappropriate or, perhaps better said, jingoistic?
I’ll rant. I have no problem with the national anthem but I reallly hate at sporting events when somebody sings it, so it’s a performance. Just play the thing, and let people sing along if they want. NO ONE can sing along with some of these people, especially when the do that “laaayand of the freee-EEEEEEE” thing screeching up another few notes. Hey, if I can sing it, you can sing it (but I can’t sing it like Celine Dion (worst-case scenario)).
If I happen to be someplace where other national anthems are played I would probably stand up in respect.
I will stand up to stretch and sing “Take Me Out to the Ballgame.” I will SIT when somebody’s singing “God Bless America.” I’m sick of that song. Why, why, why? Uck. That song is appropriate IN CHURCH. Noplace else. (And even in church, frankly, wouldn’t they rather sing something else? Okay, I just plain don’t like the song or the sentiment. That one is jingoistic in any context.)
I don’t think it’s jingoistic to play the national anthem in America. Once per event. Sitting around and singing it in bars would be a little strange, though, even with the original lyrics (which were something like “To Anacteon in Heaven”–or something like that; anyway it was a drinking song). If someone picked it as their karaoke song that would be weird, too.
It’s kind of interesting that, when sung, it’s only the first verse. This is one reason I think it should be instrumental only. The first verse asks a question: “Flag still there?” Not answered until the second verse. (“Yes.”) I’ll bet not one person in ten knows there even IS a second verse, and of those, a minuscule percentage knows the actual lyrics. All I remember is something about “half reveals, half discloses.” There are four verses.
No clue. I tend to think that it’s become the norm for sporting events, but I watch so few, I couldn’t say with any certainty. Beyond that? I can’t really think of a situation where I’d expect to hear it.
The same thing I’d do for any other national anthem, that I recognized as being played: stand up quietly. Whether a foreign national would recognize what was being played is another question, and given that it’s far from universal, I’d not think any worse of someone for not standing for an anthem not their own. But you did ask for opinions of what the person should do.
Yes. Or for the flashes of national anthems at the Olympics when medals are awarded.
There are plenty of times when it is jingoistic.
I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that the tradition of playing the National Anthem at sports events started with Baseball - and there it might well have begun as part of the Spaulding plan/plot to weld baseball to the national image. And from there I can imagine it spilling across to other sports in a haphazard method.
The way I figure it, the National Anthem is appropriate for state occaisions (swearing in of Federal office holders, diplomatic shows, and the like); funerals, esp. of military service members (which should be up to the bereaved family whether it should be played); celebrations of the so-called patriotic holidays: Memorial Day, the 4th of July, and Veteran’s Day; and military ceremonial.
It can be used at sports and school events without a second look from me, though in general I’m not going to be upset if it’s not there, either.
I think your example of having it played before a Broadway show seems pretty out there. OTOH, I’d heard that Isaac Asimov used to do a lecture on the National Anthem going through its history and textual analysis of the lyrics, which he usually followed up by asking his audience to join him in singing it, which seemed to have been a pretty neat thing.
One question for the Hockey fans out there: Is the Canadian National Anthem played at hockey games? Given that it’s the NHL we’re talking about, you’d think they’d get equal time.
My favorite team is not in the NHL; we’re in the SPHL (Southern Professional Hockey League). I’ve been on road trips to three different barns and the only one that played the Canadian anthem was Knoxville.
I’m a non-American living in America. About the only time i hear the national anthem in person (rather than on TV) is at baseball games, and i remain seated.
But i would also do that if i were still living in Australia. It’s not America that i dislike; it’s national anthems.
I’ve only been to a few hockey games. They usually play the US and the Cancadian anthem. The US crowd stands in respectful silence with the hands at their sides. (not on heart)
I don’t mind standing for a National Anthem. I’m an atheist, but I’ll bow my head in Church. The main thing I’m doing on these occasions is trying not to fart. :eek:
I don’t agree with most of the current American foreign policy. On the other hand, you are a democracy, so hopefully things will get better.
(If I met President Bush, I would politely shake his hand. I would then tell him how depressed the British are with his actions.)
I have been to international rugby matches (where the anthems are always played) and I stand up for both countries. (Again, suppressing the farting.)
I would. I stand for the US anthem in American sporting events, although I am not a citizen. To me it is part of being a good guest. Similarly, at international football games, the anthem of both teams is played. I think it is important to show the same degree of respect to the other anthem as you do to your own. It seemed to be the standard idiotic thing to do to jeer through the visiting teams anthem, which I didn’t want any part of.
And, if you are from England, all the visiting countries seemed to have much better/more inspriing anthems. Especially at Twickenham when the Welsh were playing.
Actually, Villa, that gives me a new outlook on the thing. I generally don’t stand because I have no allegiance to the nation-state. It has not occurred to me that my standing could be a gesture of respect for those who do. Thanks for the edification.
I haven’t been to an event where the national anthem was played in decades. I can’t remember whether I stood the last time or not. I wouldn’t now; I’d sit quietly. The song means nothing to me and my interest in my country isn’t affected one bit by whether I hear the anthem or not or whether we have a national anthem. If someone who sees me not standing chooses to make assumptions about me or takes it as a personal affront, that’s on that person, not on me.
All this hoopla over the re-worded drinking song “To Anacreon in Heaven” reminds me of Mike Royko’s wonderful column on the matter from decades ago.
He wrote that (during one of our earlier outbursts of “patriotism”) a guy went to a ball game and just sat through the anthem. The “patriots” surrounding him took umbrage and beat the tar out of him, after which the cops came and arrested him for disturbing the peace. The judge then reprimaded him for his lack of patriotic spirit. When he got out of the hospital and jail, he, enjoying baseball, went to another game. This time, he stood with the crowd and roared out the anthem with everyone else, but after the first verse, he continued singing the second and started into the third. However, the crowd around him decided to take umbrage at his patriotic fervor and beat the tar out of him, following which the cops came and arrested him for disturbing the peace. Now, when the guy goes to a ball game, he stands up and silently mouths the words to the first verse and sits down with everyone else.
I entirely agree with Villa. Show proper respect for the host even if you do not actively participate. I was once on leave with an army buddy who is Catholic, I am not. I was a little uncomfortable about going to church with him. His advice was to follow the lead of the congregation to show respect. He warned me not to accept communion, as that would be an insult as I am not a true believer in the Catholic church. Show respect, but do not pretend to be what you are not. His advice worked then, and has served me well for some thirty years now.
I’ve been to a few hockey and lacrosse games here in Canada where the visiting team was from the U.S., and both anthems are routinely played (we always have someone to sing them). The crowd stands and observes respectful silence for the American anthem, and then we sing and clap and cheer for the Canadian one. The kind of funny thing about this is that most of the players on both teams are Canadian.
Another funny thing is how Canadians are not noted for their patriotic fervour, but hearing my national anthem sung almost always chokes me up (when Canada won gold for both men and women’s hockey at the Olympics a couple years ago, I don’t imagine there was a dry eye in many Canadian households when our anthem was played for that).
“God Bless America” being played for the seventh inning stretch at baseball games is crap. I’ll not give that much respect if I’m around for it.
If you don’t stand for your “own” anthem, I don’t think people should be offended for you not standing for theirs. That would be showing equal respect.
I’m generally with you as to no allegiance to the nation state, with a twist. I have more allegiance to the US (where I have been 12 years) than to the UK, where I was born and lived 26 years, in some ways. I have a more emotive response to British symbolism, I think, and that certainly comes out at things like sports events, but rationally, I chose to come to the US, rather than being part of a country through accident of birth. I also still have a degree of naivety/idealism that the US is founded on principles with which I am in agreement, rather than being a country based on power/geographic position. Not that this is the place to debate whether those principles are good, still followed, or even the actual original basis of anything…
But were the UK to draft me, for example, I would feel no moral compunction as such to show up. I still might, but for different reasons. Were the US to do it, assuming I have taken an oath of citizenship by then, I would feel compelled by my personal choice to report for training.
When I was in high school, a friend invited me to a New Year’s party. She said it would be heaps of fun, and she was a good friend so I went.
They prayed.
They prayed from around 10 until well after midnight.
To me, the national anthem at a sporting event is like praying the night away at a New Year’s party. It seems like an attempt to mash two things together that don’t belong.
When I was a kid in Toronto and went to Maple Leaf Gardens to watch the Leafs play, each game started with only the Canadian anthem. Even if, say, Boston or Chicago or Detroit was playing Toronto, it was only just the Canadian anthem. There was a US flag beside the Canadian flag, though, so any visiting Americans didn’t feel too left out. Nowadays, of course, both the Canadian and US anthems are played at hockey games in Canada.
To answer the OP’s question 2, when I’ve been to a sports event at a stadium or arena in the US, I just stand. If I’m wearing a hat, I remove it. Hey, the US was kind enough to admit me to their country for a visit; I can at least stand hatless for their anthem. But that’s all I do.
Interestingly, and thinking about the recent threads on the topic, I have been asked on occasion by one or two people around my seat why I didn’t put my hand over my heart. I tell them I’m not American. That usually ends that line of questioning, but opens up a whole new can of worms: “Hey, let’s hear you say ‘eh’?” is just one of the things I’ve been asked about.
Proper protocol demands that you stand for any national anthem, assuming you’re capable of standing, and that gentlemen remove their hats. You should face the flag of the nation in question, assuming there is one (and rare is a time when there’s an anthem and not a flag) and be respectfully silent. Military ceremonial details maintain their salute through both foreign and their own national anthems, but the civilian hand over heart thing is really reserved for your own anthem.
Of course, you can not do these things as an overt show of disrespect for a given nation, but it’s just as likely to be interpreted as a lack of manners.
I am more inclined to stand for the anthem of a foreign country that I am visiting in light of the fact that I am a guest. I generally stand for the American anthem while recognizing the right of others not to.
