I have been following with fascination several discussions about the existence and nature of God, and think I have identified a subset among theists who profess no particular ideology but refer to God as a “force” or “energy” or “love”. Some of these have said that he is spiritual in nature and therefore supernatural, while others have suggested that he is a perfectly natural entity but exists outside of our ability to detect, or quantify.
Speaking as one who does not believe in any configuration of God that I have yet encountered, but only after giving up a long and fruitless search, I have a question. If God is a perfectly natural force, or spiritual essence, that imposes no ideology on us, why do you suppose that some know him and others do not? To put it another way, given that all humans are more or less wired the same, and given that some of those humans eagerly seek knowledge of God, why are only some of the seekers rewarded?
In Islam it is supposed that everyone who is capable of reasoning is capable of being aware that God exists (in Al Qur’an this is mentioned as being able to “see the signs” of God in everything you observe in the present, past or future).
Maybe that is so in other religions, it is not so in Islam. Humans can’t know or claim to know what God decides but Islam teaches “God knows what is in people’s heart” and “God created many ways”.
Salaam. A
Well, I’m a moderately religious person, but I don’t think believers have any more of a “connection” with the Devine than atheists. My faith in God is completely inside my head, and has nothing to do with his/her existence or lack thereof, nor does it prove anything at all. Maybe, very rarely, God decides to touch the minds of certain individuals in various subtle ways, but I’m pretty sure it’s on a case to case basis, and has nothing to do with their level of faith. God is a schemer, a manipulator, and if he touches individuals its because he wants to tweak the system in a certain way.
Yes I have heard of faith, but faith seems to me to be a requirement of an ideological religion. That is why I directed my question toward those who believe God to be simply a force or a spirit of undefined nature.
See above. However, I might ask you this question–If some ways of seeking God are unsuccessful (wrong), does that mean that others are right?
If you work only by faith, why believe in one god over another? Why not make up your own?
To the OP: I think you’ve answered your own question. No one knows, him, some would like to think they do because it makes them feel better. I’d like to know why some do assume an ideology, or morals, from this non-ideological god.
Yes. If I proclaim that I am going to find God by standing on my head for 2 hours while saying the Apostle’s Creed as many times as possible, then I will probably just end up with a headache. Or, I shouldn’t expect to climb the Matterhorn and find God at the summit. That would be a ‘wrong’ way to find Him. If God exists, then he would of had to reveal a genuine way to become closer to Him.
I misunderstood, I thought it was for all theists.
I personally believe in… something. Don’t know what, don’t know how many, don’t really think She/He/It/They interfere in everything, but at the end of the night, it just seems to me like there’s something out there. I guess that would make me a Deist, as opposed to a Theist, but it seems pretty close to what the OP was shooting for.
That said - I don’t think I believe in whatever I believe in because of some sort of mystical experience or some sort of extra spiritual sense that nonbelievers lack. Nor do I think that whatever is out there is evident to everybody, and that those who don’t believe in it are ignoring some sort of essential truth. It just seems to be my default position, and though I can acknowledge that there are plenty of reasons to doubt, I can’t bring myself to do it. It seems to me (and I can try to find cites to prove this, but I don’t know that I’ll succeed), that we’re not all wired the same, and that some people are just predisposed to believe. Others aren’t.
Of course, if this is true, it doesn’t do much for the idea that God exists. In fact, the idea that belief in God is related to a neurogical quirk probably would be better used to prove that there is no God, just biology. But… I don’t know. I still believe, and I probably always will. Even if I don’t actually know what I believe in.
I don’t believe you have sufficient information to make the assertion that your question implies. It is not necessarily the case that not all who seek find. If indeed there is a dual essence to existence — a natural and supernatural world — then you are using one to examine the other. You are doing what Jesus calls seeking the living among the dead. If God is spirit, then any search by the brain is necessarily fruitless. Only if God is made of atoms can the brain discern Him without the experience of the heart. (By “heart”, I mean essence.) You are presuming an existential context for examining an essence that precedes existence. For example, you say that you have sought out God earnestly and sincerely but have turned up nothing, and I believe you, so let’s grant you that. But isn’t your information incomplete? What lies around the corner today that you might discover? Did you know yesterday that you would be reading this post? By constricting your analysis to experiences in space-time, you have concluded your experiment before it has examined everything. If God is indeed eternal, then from His perspective, from His frame of reference, the whole of the universe is simultaneously not yet begun, ongoing, and finished. I was an atheist in one moment, and a believer the next. Until the coordinates in space-time when I received God’s spirit, I too had already decided that the experiment was over and that nothing was there. I had not counted on the fact that what I was examining was not atoms but essence. It is not with our brains that we discover God, but with our hearts. God is love in the sense that He is the conduit through which His favored aesthetic, goodness, is shared among free moral agents. God is about morality, not energy. And when I say morality, I do not mean rules of behavior such that straight is good and gay is bad; rather, I mean an openness of heart such that both straight and gay may be expressions of goodness. God is knocking not on your brain but on your heart. Often, the former is a gate that forbids entrance to the latter. The intellect is a fleeting thing, but essence is forever. The universe is nothing more than a probability distribution. There is nothing real in it. What is real is what is eternal. Surrender your brain and open your heart if only for a moment. This is how you give permission to God to show you His love and pour His goodness into you. Once you’ve had this experience, then your brain may have a blast at examining, analyzing, and sorting it all out. But it is quite like a sporting endeavor where, if you give it too much thought, you will ruin your own ability to achieve the end you seek. A golfer, for example, who tries to be conscious of where his elbows are and what his grip is like at eight critical stages of his backswing will be utterly paralyzed when it comes time to strike the ball. For the great golfer, it is one fluid motion born somewhere inside him, not given much thought, and executed perfectly. He can examine his swing when he is finished, but while he is swinging is not the time. God go with you in your search for truth.
I agree with that completely. Once, I sought understanding through prayer about that very thing. I complained to God that Gaudere, an atheist, was happy and that I could not understand how someone who would not so much as acknowledge His existence could ever be truly happy. But God informed me that the question of His existence is trivial. What matters is His essence. These are the words he placed in my heart:
I am the Love Everlasting. Whatever men say about me with their minds is vapor. I cannot be known by the mind, but only by the heart. Stop dividing the world between theists and atheists, and start dividing it rightly as I do. There are those who love and those who don’t. Those who love, they are my disciples.
It would be wrong because people who lived a few millenia ago already told us the right path to God. They even took the trouble to write it down for us. Why should we assume that we’re going to stumble across another way by trial and error?
No one. I’m not pointing to “my” way, I’m pointing to the way that people already gave us. How do I know their way was right? I can’t give you proof over the internet, sorry. For me belief came first, THEN the proof in my own life. But the proof was not a surprise, since I already believed.
Nowadays most people are introduced to God when they’re born. Usually he’s a man in the sky with a long beard and a James Earl Jones voice who can make you disappear just like that!
People looking for this man should stop right now. In fact, stop looking for “God”, just stop altogether. Go look for whatever it is that causes you to love the things you love and when you find it, call it whatever you want.
Hmmm. If you take out both the negatives in that sentence you are left with "It is necessarily the case that all who seek find. Is that what you are saying? Because it seems to me that I would only have to produce one unfulfilled seeker to refute it. That is to say, if, in the history of humanity, one person has died without finding God, then it is necessarily the case that not all who seek find. Do you doubt that this has happened?
Can I assume that if you refer to Jesus than you are a Christian? And if that is so then you are an adherent to an ideological religion? I do understand that ideological religions prescribe the path to knowledge of God. I was trying to direct my post to those who profess no ideology but rather say that God is a natural force, or spirit.
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I suppose I could just as well say that what lies around the corner tomorrow for you mught be the discovery that you were wrong in your belief in God.
I think you have assumed that my search has been solely an intellectual pursuit. That is not the case. I have opened my heart, to no avail. That is really the crux of my OP. If God made us all, why does he hide? Why not speak to each and every one of us daily from birth? Why make it a mystery? Why does he bestow the blessing of his presence on some and not others?
At any rate, Liberal, thank you for your thoughtful response. I appreciate the time and effort you expended on my behalf.
I’m not sure what you’re asking. I wasn’t trying to make a statement of the sum total of the experience of God, I was implying that if you’re questioning whether or not there’s a God, but you know what’s good, and you know how to love, then it’s pretty much a moot point in practical terms. But if it’s a philosophical question, I suppose I mean the love that motivates someone to want and do good for no other reason than that it’s good.