Another reason to repeal the 17th Amendment

In the futuristic novel, “1984”, author George Orwell depicts English society under a totalitarian super-state, affectionately referred to as “Big Brother”. One of the characteristics of this totalitarian society was the introduction of a new manner of speech, appropriately called “Newspeak”. The purpose of newspeak was to promote and facilitate the ideological needs of English socialism, or, in newspeak, “Ingsoc”.

Just last month, under the camouflage of “newspeak”, the United States Senate, by a vote of 94-2, facilited American socialism by passing a bill to give “low-income families” an additional $400-per-child “tax-credit” in the form of a check written by the federal treasurary.

Sounds nice, doesn’t it? Problem is, these $400-per-child “tax-credits” will now be going to people that don’t pay income taxes. But, you may ask, how can people who don’t pay taxes get a tax-refund? That’s the beauty of “newspeak”, it allows legislators to construct a welfare payment and vote-buying scheme all rolled into one. It’s democracy at its pinnacle.

Alexander Tyler, an eighteenth century historian and economist, wrote of democracy:

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship.”

Despite our political leaders always speaking of democracy in the most glowing of terms, it wasn’t always like that. America’s Founding Fathers warned future generations against succumbing to democracy’s siren song. But, like a precocious teenager who envisions himself so much smarter than his “old-fashioned” parents, contemporary American society, too, ignores the wisdom of its founders.

America’s experiment with democracy can be traced directly to the post Civil War era of Reconstruction. One of the objectives of Reconstruction was to reduce the independence of the states by moving away from the principles of republicanism in favor a more powerful Federal government.

Beginning in the latter nineteenth century and carrying over into the early twentieth century, when President Woodrow Wilson lead America into World War I with the slogan, “to make the world safe for democracy”, the idea of democracy became inculcated into the mindset of most Americans as the ideal political system. The democratization of America culminated in 1913 with the passage of the Seventeenth Amendment to the Constitution.

Prior to the ratification of the Seventeenth Amendment, United States Senators were not elected by popular vote, but rather, were appointed by the legislatures of their respective states. This system allowed the states leverage to limit the power of the Federal government and prevent it from evolving into the bloated bureaucratic beast it is today, with it’s tentacles entangled into every facet of our individual daily lives.

The Senate is the most powerful legislative body in the United States. Without Senate approval, proposed legislation cannot become law, presidential appointments cannot hold office and, most importantly, treaties with foreign nations and global entities such as the United Nations cannot be enacted.

When the state legislatures appointed their representatives to the United States Senate, the states both retained their independence and restrained the federal government with senators that held an allegiance to their states. The state legislatures, in handing over their senatorial appointments to “the will of the people”, have shifted the balance of power to the Federal government which, in turn, has aided in the passage of “progressive” social programs deemed popular with the voters, transformed highly populated urban centers into partisan voting blocks that wield their influence on both the state and national levels and, in general, has facilitated the incremental socialization of America.

When it has gotten to the point that senators are voting by a margin of 94-2 for nothing less than income re-distribution programs hidden under the guise of tax-refunds, perhaps it is time to seriously consider the repeal of the Seventeenth Amendment. Several benefits would be immediately recognized.

Were Senators appointed by the state legislatures, as originally intended, their allegiance would be insulated from campaign contributions. This would instantly solve the problem of “campaign finance reform” that, to no avail, has taken up so much time within the congress and, so far, has only resulted in law that directly conflicts with the right of freedom of speech.

Other benefits would be that personal celebrity would not be a candidate’s sole qualification for office, nor would a candidate’s personal wealth permit the buying of a seat in the Senate. As an added bonus, a president could actually be removed from office for committing “high crimes and misdemeanors”.

However, it will probably be a difficult task getting the genie back inside the bottle. Barring a constitutional convention, which would leave the potential for the altering of the Constitution as a whole, it would require two-thirds of the Senate to ratify a repeal of the Seventeenth Amendment. As the situation currently stands, there just doesn’t seem to be that much integrity in the Senate.

G. C. Collinsworth

I don’t know how much experience you’ve had with state legislatures, but they tend to make Congress look like a bunch of high-minded statesmen. In fact, the whole reason the Seventeenth Amendment was adopted was to fight the deadlock and influence of special interests in selecting Senators that had existed before it was adopted.

I personally enjoy voting, and would be sad if I could not vote for senators at the national level.

OTOH, I’m glad the OP has alerted us to the dangers of the “incremental socialization” of our country. Given the current occupent of the White House and his massive program of tax relief for the well-off at the same time that we are running the largest deficit in history, perhaps one can understand how we might have missed this pernicious trend completely.

Seriously, though, I don’t think the case for a constitutional convention on this issue has been made. I have no confidence that returning the selection of senators to state legislatures would have any less potential for corruption than the current system.

I thought this one had been about beaten to death. The taxes that this group of taxpayers are being refunded are payroll taxes. Payroll taxes take a bigger percentage out of the paychecks of these taxpayers, who are largely living in poverty, than payrole and income taxes combined take out of a higher paid persons earnings. It is only equitable to give tax relief to those who are so much in need and so heavily taxed in a time when everyone else’s tax burden is going down.

Some points to make:

  1. The assumption made throughout the OP is that having members of the Senate elected by state legislatures would move the Senate to the right. This ignores the fact that, quite often, state legislatures may well be to the left (or, at least, more partisanly Democratic, which has evolved into just about the same thing) then the state overall.

  2. The OP mentions the Progressive Era, but doesn’t go deeply into it. That’s because if he were to, he’d learn that, during that era, 1) the Senate was more Progressive than the House, 2) that the Senate of the Progressive Era was elected by state legislatures, and 3) that many Progressive Senators (Beveridge, for instance) had their careers end due to the 17th Amendment.

  3. The OP believes that having the state legislature appoint Senators would end the buying of Senate seats. Excuse me for a minute, as I laugh my head off.

  4. The OP makes the claim that a Senate appointed by state legislatures would be the only body that would impeach a President for “high crimes and misdemeanors”, but never says how this would be the case.

Of all the OP, I was most interested in the quote from Alexander Tyler. Exactly which democratic governments had Tyler witnessed falling by the mechanism that he had written about? And which have fallen since? Can anyone name one? And if “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government”, then why are the longest-lived governments currently on the planet democracies?

I don’t see any advantage to taking the senatorial vote away from the people. What is the evidence for believing that men of greater integrity will be appointed by state politicians than by direct vote of the people?

Adding to this, in most U.S. states (I am led to believe) purchasers pay sales taxes, which is about as regressive a tax as can be.

It’s been the practice in Canada for some years now to give sales tax rebates to taxpayers whose income is below a certain level. This works on a sliding scale (as opposed to a fixed payout for everybody, which strikes me as silly) and the checks, titled “GST Rebate”, arrive quarterly if you qualify.

I think the OP doesn’t know what he talking about, and advocating a pointless consititutional change makes it even worse.

As an afterthought, I’m not sure the OP fully understands 1984, either.

Color me confused. My understanding, after having been a payroll administrator, is that payroll taxes are Social Security and Medicare, both of which the employer matches the funds. Are you saying that they received a “refund” from these funds? If so, which one? Medicare, maybe, but if the money came from Social Security contributions, was their “account” reduced by that amount of money?

If I’m being dense or am misuderstanding what you are saying please forgive me. But please explain.:confused:

Well, evidently it needs another beating.

You are obviously an apologist for socialism. You are either being deliberately un-truthful or you are just ignorant.

The tax-cut mentioned is the lowering of income taxes for those with dependent children. “Payroll taxes” (ie: Social Security) have no dependent exemptions. Everyone pays the same rate. If one expects to receive Social Security benefits, one has to contribute to the program.

Here, again, we are witness to another example of “newspeak” that liberals use to disguise their methodology. Rather than saying “Social Security taxes”, they say “payroll taxes”. It is much easier to sell a “payroll tax” cut, than a Social Security tax cut. See how it works?

Furthermore, many of these “low-income wage earners” already receive one government stipend under the guise of a tax-refund, through the Earned Income Tax Credit. Another example of “newspeak”.

Nice bit of demogoguery, but, I repeat, by a vote of 94-2, the Senate voted to give a tax-cut to people who don’t pay taxes.

Yeah, go ahead and laugh your head off. You’re an apologist too.

This is what is known as “ducking the question”. You seem to ignore my point (instead of spending large sums of money to buy advertising, candidates for the Senate would just bribe the legislature), and, instead, repeat a statement of yours that really has nothing to do with anything I brought up, and then, to top it off, insult me in the process.

You are mixing apples and oranges with bringing in the issue of sales taxes.

I don’t give a rat’s rear-end on what they do in Canada.

You are being quite presumptious to even consider that others are concerned with what you “think” of a contributor to this forum.

You say that I am advocating constitutional changes that “makes it even worse”. So, explain yourself, but remember, “94-2”. Can it get any worse than that? (Well, I guess 96-0 could be considered worse.)

Now, if you can muster up anything of substance to challenge me with, concerning either the point at hand or “1984”, then, as “W” might say, “Bring it on”. Otherwise, “I think” you are all talk. (And not very eloquent at that.)

Relax or take it to the Pit, newbie.

They do pay taxes; they just don’t pay (a lot of) income taxes. I find you’re being deliberately untruthful or ignorant.

Oh, and your “Excuse me while I laugh my head off” comment wasn’t designed to insult??

You are a liberal whiner, too.

I am so glad that you decided to take me on cause it gives me the opportunity to illustrate to everyone here, that you don’t know what you are talking about.

Many of the beneficiaries to the current “tax-cut”, are people who, due to their dependent tax exemptions, do NOT pay income taxes. And, on top of that, already receive one “tax-cut” through the sleight of hand of the Earned Income Tax Credit.

Here and I was lulled into thinking that the OP had put forward a serious proposal rather than some sort of bizarre liberal (to the OP’s point of view)-baiting exercise. Or maybe the point is, the OP believes the right to choose one’s political representatives is too precious to be left to the public, or something.

Since the OP seems bound and determined to bark insults at anyone who disagrees with his views, all I can say is, who the hell cares?

Ah, well, live and learn.

My little “a lot of” qualifier is necessary, I feel, when we’re discussing something complex and beaurocratic like the tax code. It wouldn’t surprise me if among the thousands of people affected, one of them paid a buck or two in income taxes, so I don’t like to generalize.

Anyhoo, let’s assume that none of them paid any income taxes. Fine. However, since not all taxes are on income, it is illogical to jump from “they don’t pay income taxes” to “they don’t pay taxes”, a fallacy you’ve repeatedly trying to sneak through. Sales taxes (as well as school taxes and property taxes) do exist and are significant, especially for low-income familes.

As for me being presumptuous, it’s fairly obvious that at least ONE person cares what I post to this thread. That would be you, since you responded to my points (though not refuting them).

Being Canadian, I’m far too intelligent and polite to be baited with insults, though. I’m actually amused by your putting “think” in quotes. That’s truly a riposte of Wildean proportions.

I’m still unclear why any of this should alter the election process of the Senate, though.

Besides, the purpose of newspeak in 1984 wasn’t really to “promote” the needs of Ingsoc. Newspeak was designed to restrict the patterns of thought by eliminating words, which has more to do with protection of the dictatorship rather than promoting its spread (it would be hard to “promote” something if the language to describe it in detail ceased to exist). Euphamisms (and I don’t see why “tax-credit” is inherently deceiptful in this context) were only part of it.

You can argue about what pot of money sitting in Washington this refund should come from. I don’t see how it makes any difference. There was a large group of the most hard-up workers in America who were not benefitting at all from the tax breaks passed earlier. The policy makers decided to decrease their total tax burdon by returning to them some of the funds they are required to pay in payrole taxes. They are still paying into those systems and still will get all of the benefits.

The contention of the OP I was addressing is that these people don’t pay taxes. They do. Now they are getting tax relief.

BTW: I would vote against all of these “tax relief” plans that came up this year, even the ones that benefit me, in favor of keeping the deficit down. I don’t agree with the whole “borrow and spend” repubilcan philosophy.

No it wasn’t.

Let me explain. Great Debates is for discussions, including politics. The Pit is for insults. Discussions are where people provide their opinions along with justifications for their opinions. Insults are when board users engage in name calling just to annoy other people. When you call people “whiners” and “socialists” just because you can’t come up with a sensible response to their arguments, that’s an insult. When somebody points out and provides reasons for why statements that you have made are not truthful, that’s not an insult. In all honesty, I feel justified in pointing out that the vast majority of the people who use this board are capable of understanding the competing purposes of the two forums without having to have it explained to them at great length. Every OP that you’ve posted here has been instantly ripped to shreds by users who actually understand the issue that’s being discussed, and you invariably respond by retreating to a spasm of juvenile name-calling. Quite frankly, I think that even you should realize that there’s nobody here who’s dumb enough to fall for this OP or any of the others that you’ve provided.

Anyone interested in this thread might want to look into an earlier GD thread of mine: “Should the United States Senate be abolished?” – http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=181890&highlight=senate+abolished