Another Tipping Debate

Great Debates
41

Under this definition, every thing you buy is a service. Nachos are a product. Perhaps it takes a significant amount of labor to produce the product, but the end consumer doesn’t desire the labor, they desire the physical product. I pay for nachos because I want a collection of physical objects consisting of fried tortillas, cheese, and other crap.

Services, OTOH, are defined by the customer specifically contracting for a person’s labor. I tip a waiter because it’s paying for their personal service, the service I’m looking to get.

Even outside of that, you can’t possibly say that paying to have a restaurant staff cook up a plate of nachos and paying to have someone bring that plate to you are in any way paying for the same thing. I pay the price of nachos to have the nachos cooked, and pay the tip to have the plate brought to me. I didn’t tip for the nachos, I tipped for having them brought to me.

42

And proof of this is that most people won’t include a tip when getting take-out. We understand the tip is specifically for the type of services that only the wait staff provides.

43

Isn’t this exactly my point? I’ve been arguing that there are distinct services (or if you like, “things”) provided by the restaurant and the waitstaff.

-FrL-

44

Well, that’s fair.

ISTM that the fairest thing to do would be that the restaurant jack its prices up by the $4 but not advertise it as a “pouring fee”. Because that implies that the customer should give that portion of the tip to the restaurant instead of the waiter.

If the entree is four bucks more, that’s fine, because you see the price on the menu and can decide then if it is worth it. The waiter even gets 15% of the increased price added onto his tip. But that only works if the restaurant does not imply that a customer should reduce his tip (so as to avoid paying for the same service twice).

Itemizing a service that the waiter performs but collecting the fee that used to go to him seems borderline dishonest. LIke Shaddy seems to be saying, paying for “pouring service” is paid for either way. Either you add it to the tip, or you pay it to the restaurant. But not both - that’s just a back-handed way of increasing your prices and shifting the blame to the waiter.

Regards,
Shodan

45

I don’t think you read my post right. I am not objecting to or claiming any additional overall cost due to tipping. I am objecting to the advertising of lower costs. In the example I posted, I am not objecting that the item costs $24, but rather that they advertised $20 but in effect charged you $24.

It is something that I find mildly annoying, but in practice it isn’t a really big deal since everybody knows the real cost of eating out is the advertised price plus twenty percent. It is far more obnoxious when cable companies and the like sneak in charges not included in their advertised prices, since it makes comparison shopping much more challenging. Obviously this is hardly an issue at all when it comes to eating out.

46

You raise a good point, my friend.

I still think that the amount of money I’m going to part with is the amount that should be advertised as the “price”. Maybe sellers should have both the ‘before tax’ and ‘after tax’ prices on each price tag. Maybe the venue should have a huge, conspicuous sign reading: “The advertised price includes 7% sales tax.” To be replaced with an even bigger sign detailing any tax hike.

I don’t know, but you’re right that we should limit the temptation for governments to sneak tax increases in under the consumer’s radar.

47

Not if you’re arguing that a “pouring a drink” service from the restaurant (labor done by the waiter) is somehow different than the basic waiter service, which includes pouring a drink.

The price of the drink is $2, that should include all of the restaurants costs, procuring equipment and supplies, etc. The tip pays for the server’s labor in taking the order, filling the glass, and bringing the glass to you. A pouring charge is not a charge for a third, distinct service, it’s simply an extra charge the restaurant throws in on top of their $2.

If the waiter does not have to pour the drinks, and I pay for that service separately, then I should be deleting that part of the bill when determining their tip.

48

Yup.

I’m a bit sensitive to this right now because I live in MN and right when the economy is faltering…right when a possible recession either is or is looming ominiously…they raise taxes 6.6 BILLION dollars and part of that is gas tax increase.

49

But we’re talking about a situation in which the waiter does have to pour the drinks. The idea is, the waiter pours the drink, and the restaurant charges a “pouring the drink” fee. Does that make a difference to what you’re saying?

-FrL-

50

I am old. There was a time when tipping was 10 percent. Then it went to 15. Now it is 20.; Is there a point where it is too high?. I think 20 percent is for very good service. 10 percent for poor. Then grade in between. I will not go to 25%.

51

Which is why people generally tip less at buffet restaurants, where you pour your own drink.

I have a real life example of the case in the OP. I’ve been to several hotels where there is mandatory valet parking, which gets billed to you. Though I’d rather park my own car, in these cases I still tip the guy bringing the car around. It’s not his fault that the hotel is ripping you off.

In the case of the restaurant stealing the mandatory gratuity, I would not tip more. Even in places where it is not illegal, it is fraudulent, and paying the waitstaff above and beyond the mandatory tip is assisting in the fraud. They need to report the owner and have the practice stopped. I’m assuming that you have some special knowledge, since I doubt many restaurants put “We’re ripping off the waiters” on their menus.

52

Yes, the PtD fee would simply be an increase in the price of the drink, from $2 per drink to something higher. It’s not realistically a fee for a special “restaurant” service, it’s just a higher charge for the item.

If I’m paying the waiter for the PtD labor they’re providing, then there is no PtD labor for the restaurant to provide, so there is no need for a PtD service charge. Any such charge would be a way of couching their higher prices.

53

Then I think we actually agree (I think?). We were (I think?) just talking about two different cases without realizing it.

I wouldn’t subtract the entire PtD fee from the waiter’s tip if the waiter wasn’t pouring the drink, but I certainly wouldn’t include the PtD fee in the amount from which I calcualate the tip. Maybe that’s what you meant. And it looks like both of us agree that a PtD fee charged for the waiter’s own pouring of the drink is just an increase in the price of the drink–and so should be included in the amount from which a tip is calculated.

Right?

-FrL-

54

Cripes! Now I’m not sure if I agre with Frylock, with Cheesesteak, or if I just want to have a lie down. Maybe I can attack the issue this way:

I patronize a restaurant because I don’t want to cook, serve myself, or clean up. Or because I want to enjoy some item beyond my own culinary abilities. Restaurants exist as businesses to serve me. And a restaurant is certainly entitled to a fair return on its investment, or in other words, to a reasonable profit. Prices are presumably set to allow this.

But to remain in the business of catering to my custom they must, in addition to the three activities above (cook, serve, clean up) also do bookkeeping, replace light bulbs, hang signs, check in or shop for stock, and a plethora of additional things that could be construed as “services” necessary to providing me with a meal. All of that goes under the generic label of “overhead” and should be figured into the price structure.

But it is only in the single, specific area of “serve” that the restauranteur expects - even demands - my additional help. The very idea is an affront. Are we going to see additional fees charged for the busboy, the dishwasher, and the accountant? Are they all going to be paid substandard wages - and accept same - so that they will be entitled to some further support from me? And will the restauranteur itemize those charges, thus absolving himself from the guilt of seeming to be charging more for “his” part of the whole experience?

I’ve been a waiter. Waitstaff has my sympathy. Indeed, the current system requires tips in order for wait staff to obtain anything like a realistic salary. But I didn’t create this system, and I certainly do not wish to see it become even crazier than it is.

Tips originated, IMHO, not as a reward for service, exceptional or otherwise. They arose because all wait staff were traditionally overworked and underpaid. Given the fact that a waiter must apportion his time among all of his tables, the hint of a tip (“Extra money!!”) was a way of influencing him to apportion a greater share of time to MY table instead of yours. Back in the day (I know, using this phrase is a clear sign of senile dementia) lots of people dined out on a regular basis, and came to be known to the wait staff at their favorite establishments. Tippers soon got the best tables, and the most attentive service. This caused other people to tip too, attempting to level the playing, er, the service, field. Management saw these additional payments as a ready excuse to maintain or even to lower the already execrable wages paid to wait staff. Dishwashers and accountants didn’t get such supplementation, so they had to be paid realistic wages. Segue to today.

Today restauranteurs seem to be relying more and more on ME to ensure a livable wage for their wait staff employees. I object. A livable wage should be an internal matter between management and labor. Coercing me into this internal matter is plainly wrong. Pay your people more, and demand that they do a competant job, just like any other employment situation. Wait staff is part of your overhead, damn it!! They are YOUR employees, not mine. I exercise no control over their actions beyond a few brief moments wherein thay may cowtow to, or ignore, me. I cannot fire them for incompetance or provide their Holiday Bonus or contribute to their 401K. Raise prices as necessary to employ competant staff, whether they be waiters, dishwashers, or accountants. Competition will ensure that this is fairly distributed among all such businesses.

Just because these people physically “serve” me is no excuse to argue that there is some special contract, separate from their employment contract with the restaurant, between me and your waiter. Tipping is an abomination of management / labor relations.