Answer for different and unique human characteristics?

Fuel,
Your reasoning is faulty because your conclusion is based on a faulty premise. That premise is: IF phenomena cannot be explained scientifically, then supernatural explanations gain credence.

Your quest for greater acceptability would require that you demonstrate a system with better methodologies for fact finding and theory testing. Religions are notoriously bad at fact finding and theory testing. Until there is a system of understanding with as good or better quality of methodologies in this area science will be preferred.

Please Fuel, get thee to http://www.talkorigins.org and read the FAQs. You can’t conduct this discussion without some basic understanding of evolution, which currenly you don’t appear to have.

Fuel, it seems that you believe that evolution has some goal…that the whole point of evolution from bacteria to worms to fish to reptiles to mammals to primates to apes to australopithecines to humans was to produce the humans. But that is not the case. Animals exist for their own sakes. There is no directionality in evolution, such that every organism is trying to evolve into a tool-using hairless biped.

Monkeys and apes have larger brains than most other mammals, right? But they didn’t evolve those larger brains because they were trying to become humans. They evolved those brains because higher intelligence helped them to survive. Monkeys have hands just like we do, and can use those hands to use tools. But the hands didn’t evolve so that monkeys could use tools, they evolved so that monkeys could hold on to tree branches.

Some proto-monkeys became even more intelligent and we call that branch apes. And some of those apes (who for unrelated reasons just happened to be bipedal) became even more intelligent. There were several different kinds of early humans, all with different characteristics. Only one has survived, and that is us. But monkeys and apes haven’t finished evolving either. No species stops evolving.

But then why do monkeys and apes appear similar to what we imagine our early human ancestors did, while we humans look pretty different? Well, we do look different. But our differences are not unique differences. Why do proboscis monkeys (http://magazine.naturecom.de/text/proboscis-monkey.html) have enormous noses? Why didn’t all the other monkeys evolve enormous noses? Why are all the other monkeys still like the common ancestor of proboscis monkeys and other primates? We are in a similar position, sharing many characteristics with other primates, but also having some unique characteristics. But our unique characteristics don’t make us unique, every species has unique characteristics. And many of our currently unique characteristics wouldn’t be so unique if some closely related species hadn’t gone extinct.

Asking the question, “why are our ancestors still around?” is kind of odd. Take dogs for instance. We all know that dogs are domesticated wolves. So if dogs exist, how can wolves still exist? Simply because only a portion of the wolf population was captured by humans and bred into dogs. The rest of them stayed wild and retained their wild characteristics. Same thing with humans. Only one population of one species of ape evolved into humans, the others didn’t. Chimpanzees didn’t evolve into humans. At one time there was a species of ape. The population split somehow, we don’t know why. Some of the apes evolved into humans. And some evolved into Chimps. And that population of Chimps did the same thing…a portion of them split off and evolved into a third species, the Bonobo. Chimps aren’t done evolving, and neither are humans.

Ok, i am learning something here. Good. That was my whole point.

Telemark, i’ll check that site out. I do agree i am in no position to debate evolution. Who is, for that matter?

It’s just that i hear everyone quote all these scientific “facts” that intuitively seem hard to prove with bones and naturally i am skeptical. I know scientists have such a drive and burden to produce results in their research, and i am just taking the healthy road of being skeptical. Maybe here i can gain an understanding of the way things really are.

I’ll do some reading, but while i am could someone give me a good solid easy to understand beneficial mutuation for the physical, visual change of humans?

I’ll second the talkorigins advice: I thought I was gonna be the first one in the thread to offer it. They’re a great primer on evolution, and they’ll clear up a lot of your misconceptions.

When I say that science accepts certain things on faith, I mean it – but you should look at what it accepts on faith (e.g., reason, logic, an objective universe, etc.) These are things that most of us accept anyway. If you DO accept reason, logic, an objective universe, etc., then Creationism rapidly spirals into bunk, whereas evolution defends itself well against challenges. Creationism is NOT on equal footing with the theory of evolution if you stipulate an objective universe in which reason and logic etc. apply.

Go read talkorigins, and come back with questions that make more sense.

Daniel

No. Unfalsifiable means that there are no conditions that could exist that would render it false. This doesn’t mean that something that is unfalsifiable is true or false.

No.
This isn’t a case of something being unfalsifiable because there are conditions that could exist that would render it false.

It sure doesn’t.

Good for you. Me either.
Something that is unfalsifiable may well be true. Something that is unfalsifiable may well be false.
I think a somewhat analguos position in mathematics would be multiplying both sides of an equation by zero. You end up with an equation that says 0=0. Which is true but utterly uninformative.

There does exist the posssibility of evidence that would disprove it.
Consider these questions:
What test could there be for the existence of God?
What outcome would yield a result that means there is no god?

SimonX, i understand completely what you are getting at. I understand the simplisitc idea of unfalsifiable. What i am saying is that as of right now, and probably for the next 100+ years any scientific explanation for humans’ differences is unfalsifiable. We have not the technology to prove or disprove any theory, so that’s as good as unfalsifiable in my book. We are clueless! It doesn’t matter if it’s possible to prove it. It only matters if it’s ever gonna be proven/disproven. IMO of course.

This is when logic takes the passenger seat: When a human wants to decide for himself a direction to go when he is not presented with enough information to make a logical decision. When you are lost and come to a fork in the road and two guys are telling you to go in their own opposite directions, you choose your direction based on the little info that you have. At that point, there is no way to prove or disprove either guys’ advice, but you still choose a way, right? You are not gonna just sit there until there is new info to prove or disprove any which one, it may never come and you are running out of gas. You could choose to go straight off the road into the field ahead of you, which some people would relate to Christianity, or you can take either direction on the road. But all three ways can neither be proven nor disproven and probably will never be in your lifetime (your gas).

Lots of people. Folks who’ve studied evolution and creationism and know what each says.

Skepticism is good, but as someone once said “Everyone is entitled to an informed opinion.” First learn what it is you are trying to disprove. Right now you are attacking strawmen, not any real evolutionary theory. It’s a lot more than just bones, that’s your first mistake.

Could you restate this question? What exactly are you looking for? What is “the physical, visual change of humans”? This phrase means nothing to me.

I suggest reading the Hominid FAQ http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/ to get a grounding in what is known. You might also benefit from several of the other FAQs, but let’s see where that one gets us.

You know, this all boils down to what kind of person you are and your frame of reference pretty much. Me? I take this lack of evidence for either side as a free pass to choose whichever i want to believe. I obviously see science and evolution as a VERY good explanation, but it lacks the necessary elements to convince me, especially with the Bible breathing down my neck. Maybe I am not educated enough to be capable of understanding science; few people are. And even if i spent my whole life studying science, i probably would not find enough evidence to ensure myself that i am not missing out on a spiritual life.

You see, a spiritual life is so intriguing to me and so beautiful that i require more evidence of science than the normal person, i guess. If i go ahead and choose the best spiritual life based on logic and research and prayer, i know i gave my best shot at stumbling on the eternal life that anyone would want. If i just go ahead and somewhat blindly agree with some possibly biased scientists, i might miss out on the life i wished i had. I see many people doing this, and that is what i want to show them, that they are blindly believing something without bothering to worry about the other possibilities.

Looking at it logically, if your sole goal in your life is to eliminate risk, then you must deal with this “eternal soul” deal to make sure you aren’t overlooking anything. After all, there is this amazing book and millions of people who believe it. It would be too risky to ignore this phenomenon, right? Gambling with my soul is not something i would take lightly, but like i said, that’s because i am me and i have my own frame of reference…

Um, actually, common descent is pretty much undeniable if you look at the evidence. You don’t have a good handle on the details of evolutionary theory. There is lots of data that would falsify evolution, but it hasn’t been found. And a HUGE amount of data has been found that supports it. Any one piece of data isn’t going to overturn the entire field of biology, but it could modify the theory.

Your person deciding which way to go merely has to spend some time talking to the two people at the fork in the road. There is plenty of information to help you decide which way to go, it’s just not simple. You’re trying to reduce this to a blind choice between two equals, and that simply is not the case.

Whoah, chief! Slow down, good buddy! You’re all over the place here.

First off, there’s not a “lack of evidence” for the theory of evolution and the theory of natural selection. There’s a whole titan’s buttload of evidence that supports the theories. We’re not talking just any titan’s buttload: we’re talking Uranus.

[sub]okay, enough third-grade geek humor for one post[/sub]

Second, what does finding a spiritual life beautiful and intriguing have to do with requiring more evidence for science? Are you suggesting that the two are incompatible? I can name one religious figure who disagrees with you: the Pope. Go digging, and you’ll find that there are millions upon millions of people who both are religious and are believers in the validity of the scientific method. The two are perfectly compatible.

Third, there are plenty of people who understand the scientific method, who understand that science never proves anything in the same way that mathematics proves something. These are people who understand that all science can do is propose theories that aren’t contradicted by any of the available data. The more data that’s gathered that doesn’t contradict a theory, the better the theory looks – but at any point, any theory (including the theory of gravity) could be disproven by anamalous data.

Just because you don’t understand science doesn’t mean that nobody understands it.

Go back and read talkorigins. Great Web site, and they address many of your misconceptions.

Daniel

Fuel, I have no idea why you are contrasting science and spirituality. To put it in theistic terms, why would an intense and objective exploration of God’s creation be offensive to God? Why do you feel that attempting to understand evolution would somehow put your soul in danger? You do realize that the vast majority of people who believe in evolution are also theists? Yes, many atheists believe in evolution, but I’d say that the vast majority didn’t become atheists through their understanding of evolution.

It’s always interested me that when we come right down to it, as Fuel is attempting to do here, the objections to evolution are not scientific at all, but have some other roots. Fuel believes that evolution somehow disproves God, or at least the existance of the soul. But I disagree. I can quite easily imagine God, the soul, and evolution coexisting. I don’t agree that they do in fact coexist, but that is not because evolution requires atheism/materialism as a philosophical base.

And I totally disagree that most people aren’t capable of understanding science. It is true that the human mind is finite, yet the number of things to learn about the universe is infinite. But the basics of science are something that everyone can and should learn. Science is just a way of looking at the world, of being extra careful to guard against fooling yourself. It isn’t magic, it isn’t omniscient, it isn’t mistake-proof.

Science is just a way of trying to discover mistakes and let everyone know about the mistakes. We can’t just give up and say that we can’t make decisions, or that every decision is just as good as any other decision, because every day we have to make correct choices just to keep breathing. If I eat that fruit over there will it nourish me or poison me? What happens if I stick a fork in that little wall socket? Every decision we make is contingent and subject to review. All science does is to make the criteria for reaching those decisions about the world explicit.

Fuel, I understand you are getting piled on here, which we can’t really do much about. I hope you understand that there ARE people here who have put a lot of time and study into the subject of evolution, and all the evidence available. They really are qualified to be discussing evolution (which is not always the case, but this board happens to have some remarkable people posting on it) This doesn’t mean you have to believe them, and indeed, being skeptical is really a laudable thing.

In fact, let me make both a defense, and a warning about your skepticism. The defense is this: whether you personally believe evolution accounts for the diversity of life on this planet or not… is simply not a very pressing issue. Unless you are interested in a career as a professional scientist, doing research, not believing in evolution is not going to materially set you back in your professional or intellectual pursuits. You can still live a happy life, be well-educated, become a proffesor, lawyer, or the President. While some might argue that your disbelief could have harmful effects on other people who ARE going to be involved in science, I think that’s at best a probability, and is besides premised on thinking that you are wrong: a premise which you don’t accept anyway, making it a moot point.

So you, personally, can easily afford to be skeptical, and especially for people on this board, skepticism is always an invigorating thing. From the perspective of the people on this board, the appearance of a skeptic like you is hopefully a chance to have yet another look at evolution to reconsider again and again their own arguments: how to best formulate them, how to make them current, and whether there are parts that are really as sound as we make them out to be.

The warning is this: we should, and you should, be skeptical of skeptics. Skeptics make arguments too: arguments against various things, and these arguments are just as capable of being misinformed or dishonest as the ideas they are criticizing. So while I agree that Creationists can be skeptics, that doesn’t mean that their attacks on evolution are always well thought out or even principled. You need to be just as wary of evolution skeptics as you are of evolution itself. I may be wrong, but your posts sound very much like you’ve either recently read creationist/ID books by Johnson or Dembski, or webpages based off their ideas, because your arguments are very similar to theirs (particularly Johnson). While I’m not going to go into my problems with those writers here, I would counsel that it pays to be just as skeptical of their claims about evolution as you might be about evolutionary theory itself.

—I’ll do some reading, but while i am could someone give me a good solid easy to understand beneficial mutuation for the physical, visual change of humans?—

I’ll try to give you my best answer on this. First of all, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, you need to understand that your focus on beneficial mutations is misguided: it’s giving you a misleading picture of how evolution works.

The way you seem to be thinking of things is this: there’s a population of creatures. We’ll say that the creatures of this population are not altogether fit for its environment in several different ways, though we need consider only one. In your story, you seem to think that for this population to change, it needs to basically wait around until one of the creatures is born with a beneficial mutation: a longer beak, a better eye, etc. Then, natural selection favors this creature and its offspring, and they come to dominate.

If that is how you see things, then I can appreciate how you find it implausible that evolution could explain the diversity of life on the planet. Indeed, though that story is possible it is indeed wildly implausible as a mechanism for the sort of evolution we’d need to see to explain the species diversity of life on this planet. “Beneficial” mutations of that sort are indeed very very rare.

That story, however, is actually not what evolution is all about. Indeed, if that story were commonly true, we’d actually have a problem with what’s known as the “modern synthesis” (Darwin + Mendelian genetics). Because it would mean something called saltation: huge jumps of remarkably lucky development happening much faster than would be expected by a common knowledge of mutation. If that happened: if we saw dogs turning into cats within only a few generations, it would actually pretty prove most of what we call evolution to be WRONG. Indeed, if singular mutations that came when needed and then somehow dominated a population were what drove evolution forward, I would be a skeptic myself. For one thing, there’s no reason to think that even a very beneficial mutation would spread to an entire population: it would much more likely be quickly diluted by interbreeding with non-mutated variants. Luckily for evolution, however, the above story is NOT the general case that evolution rests upon.

The real story is this: that same population of creatures is made up of diverse individuals. Why diverse? Most simply because of the genetic mixing of traits due to sexual reproduction (even with a strictly limited pool of traits, there are still billions of possible combinations. But more fundamentally because of… mutation. But here’s the kicker: not “beneficial” mutation. Most mutations aren’t “beneficial” or even “detrimental”: they are just slight changes that really don’t have much appreciable effect. What they do do, however, is steadily increase variation in a given population over time: every animal is less and less like its fellow cousins along a wide number of different traits. Slightly longer legs, slightly shorter, slightly lighter bones, slightly heavier, etc. Usually each individual change is even more miniscule than that: just a slightly different volume of protein expression during embryonic development or something like that.

Now, why did I put “beneficial” and “detrimental” in quotes there? Because in this model, it’s very rare that you can know that a given mutation is beneficial (or detrimental) when it happens. It just happens, and is henceforth just one of many many other changes floating around in the gene pool: just another contribution to the variation in a population. It’s effect may not even be “selected” for until hundreds of years after it enters the gene pool! That even means that a mutation might well be detrimental in one context, but beneficial in another. A mutation that calls for slightly thicker fur could be detrimental when your population is in the desert… but as it migrates north, chasing its food source over a few hundred years, it becomes beneficial.

What that also means is that populations DON’T just wait around for the right beneficial mutation to occur before they proceed. All they need to have is enough variation stored up in the gene pool: not contemporary “lucky” mutations that come just when needed! With this variation in place, selection of the environment puts pressures on the entire population, not just any one individual. A percentage of this population survives to breed into the next generation: and, here’s the key point: that surviving percentage is biased towards whatever slice of the already existing variation is most beneficial. Not just along one single trait, but all relevant traits at once. This surviving population then increases its numbers again, and then ITS children are selected: and so on. At the same time, mutations may well have happened to occur in some of that surviving generation: but these mutations may have nothing to do with any of the “beneficial” traits currently being selected for: all they really do is continue to increase the variation in the surviving population. Indeed, by most estimates, variation actually increases four times faster than would be necessary to make evolutionary change plausible in the neccesary amount of time. That means that natural selection actually slows down the propagation of new variations!

Now, I don’t know if you find the second story any more plausible than you find the first. But when you criticize evolution, especially from the “beneficial mutation” perspective, you should definately be thinking about the second story, not the first. Because the second story makes the “beneficial mutations are unlikely” complaint pretty much irrelevant. This isn’t about just waiting around, hoping for beneficial mutations to come along.

You know, I am not religious (at all), but Wired magazine a few months ago had an interview with the head astrophysicist of the Vatican.

He has a very clear idea of how God and Science merge. His picture is completely different than the fundamentalist creationist crowd. He doesn’t want to shoehorn religion into whatever God-of-the-Gaps picture is around today, because he well knows that science closes those gaps invariably. His argument is that it was first Biblical Creation, now it is Intelligent Design or Guided Evolution or the weak anthropic principle. The gaps get smaller, and therefore that concept of God gets smaller.

He believes that religion requires a leap outside of science. Most faithful scientists I know believe similar. I am comfortable with my life lived under the few assumptions of science – we live in an ordered and rational universe and what we see is what we get. But I can understand (and even envy at times) those with a sense of something else, something outside of science that continues when our ordered and rational universe ceases.

You know, as a christian a year or two ago, i used to tell people exactly this: Why do Christians feel like they have to pick a fight with evolution? Why can’t they believe God created everything with this mechanism as the ruling force? Why do the two have to oppose each other? There is no reason to think that we couldn’t have come from apes, what if that’s how God created us?

I used to believe this without a doubt, but now i am wondering whether they are compatible. Genesis does say that all the animals shall produce after their kind. And the Bible seems to point to a very young Earth. I guess this is the most important subject here. To tell you the truth, i am not quite sure what made me start doubting the compatibility of modern science and Creation. Mainly, i just see science as a stumbling block for Creation, but indirectly. People tend to believe science and illogically say that it proves Creation wrong because it (evolution) is it’s own answer in itself. Why keep seeking for a truth when you seem to have one in science? So, science becomes people’s God and they never give religion or the Bible a thought. So, they (science and the Bible) are at odds, but not directly, sort of indirectly. That’s what makes this whole idea hard to convey.

Do you all see where i am coming from, hopefully?

What I think you are saying is that science is displacing religion. That science forms a cohesive world-view which displaces religion. Perhaps this is true – the majority of scientists are not religious. It doesn’t have to be that way, though.

Science has clear fast limitations with what it can and can’t do. Science can give us cohesive theories about how the universe works. It can’t bring us truth. It can’t ask what “the purpose” of the universe is. It can’t tell us what came before or what comes after this universe. And it doesn’t attempt to.

For most people, religion and science fit together like two pieces of a puzzle. Religion gives us overarching views about purpose and truth. The Bible often does so by use of allegory. If we accept certain things in the Bible as allegory, then there are no disagreements. It is only when every word of the Bible must be the literal truth that we run into problems.

As to why most scientists aren’t religious. Well, we live our lives observing and processing data. We use logic to formulate the observations into hypotheses and design experiments to support these hypotheses. Everything not necessary, and everything unsupported by objective evidence is tossed. This is our line of work, and it usually bleeds over into our personal views. I know it has in my life – I questioned my faith, I found that I didn’t really have faith (and never really felt a connection in praying or going to synagogue), and I discarded that aspect of my life. Beyond dietary choices and a couple of days of the year when I used to go to synagogue, my life has not changed. I respect that some people have a strong sense of faith and I don’t seek to deny that sense. Since I do not have that sense, I cannot dictate to people what I think they should do. But I would say to them that no matter how strong their faith and personal beliefs, science will not be affected. Science will go along revealing new things, and in the long run will be free of personal and cultural biases. Don’t try to use your religion to impede the progress of science. In the long run (and perhaps even in the short run), your religion will lose.

I, like many people, was raised with a lot of education about the Bible. I have weighed its value and find that it is inadequate to explain archeological and geological discoveries. So it’s not as though most of us have never given it a thought – we have thought about it deeply.

Furthermore, the Bible story, unlike science, does not change. Once you know the Genesis version of history there is nothing more to learn. Science, on the other hand, is always being examined and tested and this requires thinking. There is no need to keep thinking about the Bible’s version of history.

It is inaccurate to say that science becomes a God. Science is a process of suggesting hypotheses and exploring possible answers based on evidence. God knows everything already, and has no need to seek evidence.

I am puzzled. If you have faith, as you claim, then why are you posing these questions in the first place?

This post of yours suggests that you don’t understand.
Unfalsifiable means that there are no possible conditions that would be able to prove it false.
That’s one of the hallmarks of scientific knowledge. All scientific knowledge is falsifiable.
One possible condition that would falsify evolution would be if DNA was completely and radically different for all creatures. That is a possible condition that would render evolution proved false.
The supposition that there is no gravity, but instead everything falls because of small, invisible, undetectable, pink, unicorns drag them down to the earth with magic powers. There are no possible conditions that could exist that would be able to prove it false.

We have the technology to disprove lots of theories. Where do you keep getting this idea that no theory can be diproved?

Well that may be, but it actually means something other than not provable. Not provable is not the same as unfalsifiable. Not provable means that there are possible conditions that could exist that would prove something false but for what ever reasons these conditions cannot be met.

It matters if possible to falsify something.

Religions offer very poor methodologies for finding facts and checking hypotheses. When faced with the evidence that led to and verifies evolution religions have to resort to denial of evidence or to unfalsifiable claims like theistic evolution.

Your reasoning is faulty because of your premise “If phenomena cannot be explained scientifically, then supernatural explanations gain credence” is faulty.

—Genesis does say that all the animals shall produce after their kind.—

What does this really mean though? How could it possibly mean “species,” and thus rule out speciation? The concept of “species,” despite being very vague, wasn’t even known then, so it couldn’t have been what writers meant. There is no biological demarkcation between species: no physical or biological block that prevents species from diverging and become different species.

Does it rule out long long term change anyway? It seems to be a simple observation about what happens in reproduction. At no time ever is there a time when a creature of one species gives birth to a different species. That may be a strange concept, but very much true: in fact, we can generally only ever identify the “birth” of a new species in retrospect, looking back on what happened to a population since.
Species is a fuzzy concept, not an Aristotilian essence (and note: Genesis was written long before Plato and Aristotle developed the ideas of hard immutable essences, so why assume that Genesis is channeling Plato?)

—And the Bible seems to point to a very young Earth.—

Well, if you are convinced that it is litterally true, and that this is what it says, I doubt it’s productive to argue with you. But not all Christians accept the premises that would make this, even if true, a problem.

—Mainly, i just see science as a stumbling block for Creation, but indirectly.—

Things are at stake here, I don’t want to play that down. The findings of science are indeed trouble for certain accounts of Creation, including the idea that the earth was created 10,000-4,000 years ago and man only a few days afterwards. But keep in mind that not ALL accounts of Creation involve those sorts of things.

—People tend to believe science and illogically say that it proves Creation wrong because it (evolution) is it’s own answer in itself.—

I don’t understand what you mean. “Science” is a method, not a particular body of knowledge. “Science” is just our process of looking at the world and trying to figure out inductively (and, in terms of theories, using deduction) what it can tell us about the past, the future, and its present operation. Using this method, we’ve proven some accounts of Creation wrong. Anyone is welcome to criticize the method, either on it’s own terms, or simply in rejecting the validity of the method. But keep in mind that doing the latter is a pretty big jump: requires giving up some pretty reasonable premises without which pretty much everything, in terms of learning about the world around us, is a moot point anyway.

—Why keep seeking for a truth when you seem to have one in science?—

Because science is a method for finding truth. It’s, by nature, always incomplete, always provisional. That’s the best one can get with such inquiry, but the best you can get is pretty darn good.

—So, science becomes people’s God and they never give religion or the Bible a thought.—

This, IMHO, is simply a sloppy use of words. What justifies the claim that sceince is anyone’s “God”? What evidence do you have that scienists never give religion or a Bible “a thought?” In fact, you have plenty of evidence that many scientists and science enthusiats DO give the Bible and religion a lot of thought (and, of course, come up with all sorts of different opinions about it). We have plenty of people here on this board who are both passionate believers and also have excellent scientific minds (as well as a smaller subset that are actually scientists).

—Furthermore, the Bible story, unlike science, does not change. Once you know the Genesis version of history there is nothing more to learn.—

Well, I think we can be more charitable than that. Even many people who think that Genesis is a near true description still admit that science (albeit selectively picking and choosing) helps explain some new possibilities for what Genesis is really saying happened.