Answer The Bible Studying Guy.

Great Debates
1

I’m a 27 year old Italian-Mexican male. I was raised in a Roman Catholic household. I went to CCD. I went to church. I said the Our Father every night at my bedside. Most of my formative years were spent as a devout Catholic. I was so much a Catholic that when it came time for first confession, I was so ashamed of myself that I wouldn’t go. Since that time, I haven’t taken communion. I have been back to church many times and there is a large part of me that still holds on to the belief in God and Jesus although I have studied and believed in many different religions. In my youth, I read most of the Bible, in parts. I have now decided to read the whole Bible and try to fathom a new understanding of God and my beliefs.

I started reading tonight, with a hope that I would find truth and faith. Unfortunately, from the first sentence, everything I read inspired doubt instead of belief. Somehow, my questioning nature has played against me in my pursuit of a newfound faith in God. I am asking the help of the Teeming Millions to dissect and find understanding in the Bible. Obviously, this relies mainly upon the Christians and Jews (and maybe even Muslims(for the OT at least)) a lot, but I would like the input of any who can offer analysis of my questions. Hence the reason I am pursuing help here, as opposed to a Christian board or discussion forum. This is going to be a slow process, as I am almost in need of line by line assistance. I realize Bible study or consultation of books and clergy may be in order, and perhaps I will use those sources as well but, as a start, I hope you will assist me here.

FYI, I am reading a Marian Edition Catholic Bible. Feel free to correct the syntax and wording from your bible of choice if it will add clarity to the subject matter.

Thanks,
Demo
Genesis 2.2 We all know the story of creation and, at this point, I feel a debate on the seven days would be fruitless. This is a debate I have no interest in at this juncture. My first catch is the sabbath. “And He rested on the seventh day from all the work He had done.” Why would God need to rest? This doesn’t make sense to me. If God is all-powerful, etc. then one wouldn’t need to rest. What does this imply to man? What is the significance of the sabbath?

2.8 “God planted a garden in Eden, to the East” East of what? From reading, it is obvious that the garden is in Persia, but from what refference point is east?

2.9 There is a tree of life and a tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I have no problem with the good and evil so far, but what is the tree of life? Why is it mentioned, if not to be reffered to later?
I think this is more than enough for now. This should, and I’m sure has inspired enough debate for years. Due to the nature of the discussion, let’s try not to get too deep into the individual subjects, and focus on the goal of comprehension of the bible. Please let me know if the format of questions can be changed to better suit the discussion.

Again, thanks for your help.

2

The reason reading inspires doubt is that religion is all made up. In church, you get caught up with the social aspects. But reading makes you think, and fairy tales can’t take a close look without revealing their nature.

3

Tree of Life- A & E could have eaten from it and lived forever, but were banished after eating from the other tree.

remember that for most of their history, these stories were passed down mouth to mouth and existed in a context where the world was immensely large, where most of the earth was a mystery except for one’s small section. these were folk stories, the main method of spiritual expression of the day.

keep in mind most of all that this scripture was both a driving force and a religious reflection of the Israelites. the stories were born of a culture, into which they were enacted, thereby changing the culture and bearing new scripture. and it wasn’t until generation after generation after generation of refinemnet of both the culture and the scripture that the word was set down.

finally, keep in mind moby dick. yes, moby dick. the bible is filled with hundreds of pages and ten-thousands of words of how to flens a whale (well, not literally- but if you are a Literalist, then this conversation is basically moot). If you want to skip it, do it. It will cause no great loss of understanding of God. But if you do sit down and slog through it, you will get a much better sense of the book itself. But always remember that most parts aren’t all that necessary (hell, the whole first half of the book had held its own for a while there).

mainly, keep in mind that it wasn’t written for you to read it, but if you read it you’ll probably be a better person for it.

jb

4

For starters, I’ve posted something in the Cain’s wife thread that my help. To address your questions point-by-point,
1)That point about rest is in the context that God was mandating a way of life, if you will, for man to follow. In other words, it is important to put aside time for fellowship with friends etc.
2)As far as I am aware, the pentateuch ( I’m the Jews here can correct me) was put together by Moses, while Israel was in the wilderness, thus East is East of the Sinai Peninsular.
3)Again, I believe this is a metaphor. Man had the choice of simply living in relationship with God, in which case deciding between right and wrong was not an issue, or deciding that he should define right and wrong for himself, irrespective of his creator.
On the subject of comprehension of the Bible, I would reccomend reading Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis. Then read anything else by C.S.Lewis you can get your hands on. Also A Normal Christian Life by Watchman Nee is very good.
Within the Bible itself, the book of Romans is a systematic explanation of the nature of Christianity, as Paul hadn’t, at the time of writing, met the Roman church, and wanted to make sure they started off on the same foot, so to speak, when he did meet them.
Also, the gospels give, in my opinion the clearest picture of Gods nature. When reading them, check out Lewis’s theory for yourself. According to Lewis, Christ was either Liar, Lunatic, or Lord. The gospels don’t leave the option of him being only a prophet or teacher.
I’d love to discuss any other queries you might have, as I find it is the best way for me to learn.

5

I think you have started a great endeavor.

1.) Sabbath
In Mark 2:27, Jesus says “The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath” By making the Sabbath holy (set apart), God was setting an example for his creation. He designed the human body to need rest, and one out of seven was his model. For every six days of work, one day of rest should be observed. The text doesn’t say he had to rest, because he was tired, it just says he rested. Mostly for our benefit, IMO.

2.) I agree with Chewie, east of Sinai.

3.) There is another image of the Tree of Life. In Revelations Chapter 22, the Tree of Life is shown again in Heaven.

From Nelson’s Bible Dictionary

HTH

6

Remember that the Bible was written in the language of its time. Thus, the poetic imagery was well-understood to the contemporary audience, but is often lost on us.

On God resting: The Bible uses human terms to describe God, throughout. “God said” – but God has no mouth, per se. “God looked and saw it was good” – well, of course, why did he need to look? Didn’t He KNOW it was good? Similar anthropomorphisms occur throughout the text. Thus, “God rested” is an anthropomorphic expression of something that we can’t really fathom. As others have commented, the easiest explanation is that God rested to show mankind that a day of rest was desirable.

To the east: Means east of Canaan, east of the Holy Land, of course… although probably also means east of Mesopotamia, as well. Regardless of how/when you think the text was composed, the audience was either in Canaan or in the Sinai wilderness, and they thought the world was flat. Hence, “east” made perfect sense.

Since most of the early parts of Genesis (Noah, Tower of Babel, Abr[ah]am leaving Ur) take place in Mesopotamia, “east” could also refer to further east than the Tigris/Euphrates valley.

Tree of Life: Well, it was the tree that produced weekly copies of LIFE magazine, of course. What else?

7

You asked why God would need to rest, which makes sense if you look at the word “rest” to mean “recovery.” It also can simply mean a period of inactivity or decreased activity. In the days beforehand, God was busy creating the firmament, raising the waters, desinging the platypus, and so forth. After he was done, the amount of his activity did seem to drop rather precipitously.

8

Demo:

I may be totally wrong here, and corrct me if I am.

It seems to me you might be going into this with some preconcieved notions about what you will find, and those notions - on one hand, some thing (a spark, a revelation, a sign, whatever) will hit you and you will “get it,” and on the other hand, a confirmation of your creeping cynicism.

If I were you I would do my best to take these notions out of your mind. Try and look at it as if you are reading a book - nothing more, nothing less. It will speak to you in ways that you NEED to hear, not what you WANT to hear.

Good luck on your journey. When you finishg this journey, I’m sure that Dopers can suggest a plethoria of other spiritual texts which might expand your knowledge as well.

Yer pal,
Satan

I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
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9

Democritus:

Good questions, all. Here is my understanding of those issues:

Correct. The word “rest” is a bit of a mistranslation, as is the word “work” when referring to the set of actions forbidden by Judaism to do on the Sabbath. The Hebrew term “Melacha” is the word usually translated as “work”, specifically means creative work (as opposed to “Avodah”, which would imply physical exertion). “Shabbos”, the opposite of “Melacha,” means to cease from creative work…not to rest from exertion. It merely means that G-d stopped creating at that point, not that he “needed to rest.”

Well, to us Jews, it implies that work is not something to be done constantly, but rather, that it is important to set aside times in which we specifically refrain from work and take stock of our actions and appreciate what we’ve done. If work becomes one’s all-consuming passion, a person is empty inside. A time of non-work is essential to the cycle of life. And that time is ideal for spending in introspection and spiritual pursuits. The physical serves the spiritual, not the other way around.

So leave the cell phone and laptop behind when on vacation.

Again we run into translation issues, although here it’s a bit more ambiguous. It could simply mean, as CKDextHavn said, East of Canaan, Egypt and the Sinai, as that’s where the Jews were when the Torah was first presented to them. However, the Hebrew word used here is “mi-Kedem,” which can also mean “at first.” “Kedem,” meaning first in Hebrew, means East as well, because that’s the direction in which the sun is first seen. So it’s possible that the verse in question is actually saying “G-d planted a garden in Eden at first” (in other words, this is the first place he prepared for human habitation).

It is referred to later…in Genesis 3:22, as implying that eating from the Tree of Life will impart eternal life. G-d sent Adam and Eve out of Eden after they ate from the Tree of Knowledge because if they stayed there, they might get the idea to eat of the Tree of Life and live forever. So this is a tree that is unique to Eden. Why it existed we’re not sure, though it can be inferred from that context that its purpose could only have been properly served if they hadn’t eaten from the Tree of Knowledge first.

10

I’ve mentioned this book in the “Cain’s wife” thread, but I thought I’d mention it here too. I’ve recently finished Don’t Know Much About the Bible by Kenneth C. Davis. It’s an interesting beginners book on the Bible, what it means, why it includes the stuff it includes and a host of other Bible information. Check it out.

11

Actually, it is not in heaven, but on earth in the Holy City of Jerusalem.

12

I stand corrected…

13

henbin: That may be, but I’ll just have to give it a chance.

Chewie: I actually have read Mere Christianity as awell as A case for Christianity, The Screwtape Letters and, of course, The Chronicles. He definitely appeals to my logical side.

Satan: You’re right. Actually, I realized the futility of trying to read this piece by piece, so no I have two bookmarks: One placed where I am in the reading and one placed where I am in the questions.

Chaim, Dex, Navigator and everyone else, thanks for your great definitions and explanations.

Genesis 3.1-15 Your opinions on the serpent? Was this the devil?

4.15 [“Whoever kills Cain shall be punished sevenfold.” Then the Lord gave Cain a token so that no one finding him should kill him.] Why was Cain protected any more than anyone else after he had just done a terrible thing? What was the token?

5.5 Adam lived 930 years? Is this a certain part of Adam’s lineage or actually him? What is this meant to convey?

14

Democritus:

Once again, from the Orthodox Jewish perspective:

Most likely; the Talmud certainly makes some statements implying that. However, do realize that in Judaism, Satan is not an opponent of G-d, but a servant of G-d, who serves as the “prosecutor” in the “heavenly court,” and as part of these duties, he tempts people to sin (yes, in modern American law, that would be considered illegal entrapment). In executing his duties toward Adam and Eve, he used the form of the snake. The snake was punished because of this, since all animals are intended to be utilized by human beings in their service of G-d, and, as its original form (with legs, capable of speech) was clearly more of an impediment to humanity than a boon (as Satan was able to utilize it to tempt Eve into sin), it had to be altered so that humanity would have an aversion to it.

He repented afterward, when he said “My sin is too great to bear.” G-d had already punished him with constant wandering (bad enough punishment for anyone, but certainly for a dedicated farmer!); his repentance made it so that no further punishment was warranted.

Uncertain. Some Midrashim say a horn grew on his forehead, some say a letter of G-d’s holy name was written on his forehead, some say his skin turned white (which is ironic, as there have been racists who have called blacks “children of Cain”).

It is intended to refer specifically to Adam. While there might be some greater significance to the number that I’m not aware of, I think most of the numbers in Genesis 5 are intended merely to demonstrate that human lifespans were a lot longer prior to the flood than following it, indicating a wide-ranging change in nature due to the flood.

Chaim Mattis Keller

15

But, God never in fact made Cain a fugitive and a wanderer. He wasn’t a fugitive because of the token, and he wasn’t a wanderer since he went and dwelt in Nod and built Enoch.

16

jmullaney:

Punishment is not the only thing in the world that one could be a fugitive from.

He didn’t necessarily reside permanently in Nod; that’s merely where he went after he was expelled from his home.

Chaim Mattis Keller

17

Democritus wrote:

You visited a Charge-Coupled Device?

(I guess this gives new meaning to the “holy see”. <rimshot>)

18

I have one: why is there so much misogyny in the Bible:

  1. the missing name of Noah’s wife, the second mother of all humankind, as well as many women;

  2. the allowance of husbands having multiple wives but not vice versa;

  3. the explicit verses that indicate that women are to submit to their husbands

  4. “I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.” (2 Timothy 2:12, Revised Standard)

This disturbing omission of important women, as well as the scripural commands to women to submit authority to men, seem inconsistent to the relative egalitarian history of Jews. This is the main reason why I’m not a Christian today.

19

Demo-
You were ashamed to go to confession? I think you’re missing the point of what confession is for.

See, if you go to confession, then you do penance, which is usually harmless*, generally consisting of prayers or some kind of charitable work. Then you get to be absolved of your sins. It’s a great way of unloading shame and guilt, and a lot cheaper than therapy.

I don’t really enjoy making confessions, but I always feel a lot better afterward.
*usually. One time at a church supper (in my church, you’re always getting fed. Fr. Francis takes the calories out of the food, though) Fr. Francis told the story of an old Italian priest he knew back in New York who had a woman in his parish who was a malicious gossip. She ruined a lot of perfectly nice people’s reputations. Once when she went to confession, the priest, as penance, made her clean the center aisle of the church.
With her tongue.

20

I would also recommend reading C.S.Lewis’s Surprised by Joy, his retelling of the journey you are now on.
On the subject of women in the Bible, I would suggest looking at context a lot.

  1. As far as I am aware, the old testament law was a lot more reasonable than any of the other ethics systems around at the time.

  2. Paul also refers to female church leaders as close friends and fellow workers, I think one in particular was called Penelope. I think the comments about women speaking in church and such related to women using meetings as a place to catch up and have a gossip while the men were studying the scriptures. I think this pattern would have carried over from the Jewish tradition.

Just my take on those issues.
Oh, and I thought that satan was actually the Jewish word for accuser. Thus calling the leader of the fallen angel Satan within Christian theology would indicate to me that his main attack on the Christian is in the form of accusation, to try to invalidate our justification by faith, not works.

Incidentally, I went to a Catholic school myself for awhile, and I must say I find this idea of salvation through faith and works to be baffling. I can only assume it was put in place while the masses couldn’t read the Bible themselves, and served to increase the power of the Church Administration.