Anti-Austerity Party Wins in Greece: Will Greece Leave the Euro?

Redirect the money going to the bankers to the people. It’s called refunds. You may be aware of it at tax time. Since it’s been done before, it would not break new ground.

As for the mechanics of the operation, I have sent an email to German Chancellor Angela Merkel, also considered the defacto leader of the EU, accoring to Wikipeda, with instructions to forward to you, c/o this board, links to all the documents pertaining to carrying this out. The German bureaucracy, after all, is nothing if not efficient. (I have, of course, avoided the term "redistribution of wealth,” so have no fear. )

Speaking of Straight Dope accounts, I suggested she open one, if it doesn’t already exist, to PM you directly so you can better learn about Greece’s predicament.

I assume you mean gobbledygook.

If, as you imply, you are ignorant of the character Scrooge McDuck, you can catch up here. I don’t doubt that your abilities include putting 2 and 2 together, at that point.

In the words of the 19th-century novelist Charles Dickens character Wilkins Micawaber, who is, alas, fictional, so you may not be familiar with the name: “Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery.”

Yes, but I sense you may not, since you keep asking. Helpful hint: It’s all over the internet. I think it likely that even Fox covers it, though probably only on Sunday mornings.

But if you have access to printed newspapers, preferably broadsheets, you will find information in those, as well.

I think it should retain the euro. The drachma is so 1100 BC.

So you think that the bankers who loaned Greece money should get fucked. Okay, fine.

Greece will of course respond to this generosity by immediately getting its fiscal house in order and spending no more than it takes in. Actually, it will have to since no one will ever loan it money again.

You think this austerity is bad? Wait.

One of the many economic problems Greece faces is that Greeks don’t pay their taxes. One cannot really refund something that was not paid in the first place.

And I am not sure (still) what you mean by redirecting the money to the people instead of the bankers. One of the earlier attempts to restructure the Greek debt was to impose a 53.5% haircut on private holders of Greek bonds. IOW there was no money to redirect - the Greek government simply did not repay the money they had been loaned. How does one redirect something like that?

Regards,
Shodan

Some of the money would have been better. Enough of a percentage to initiate school breakfasts and/or lunches to ensure child hunger is no longer an issue, or at least less of an issue.

But refunds would be more complicated than simply diminishing the crushing taxes so the payback takes longer. After all, why should children be the only Greeks not going dangerously hungry?

Zeus knows the bankers, as everyone was made aware in 2008, are innocent victims.

Undoubtedly Greece has had scores of problems which led to the issues that led to austerity. However, austerity was likely the absolute worst idea for Greece - generally speaking, contracting government spending when in a recession is a death sentence for economic growth. It’s no surprise that growth cratered and unemployment shot up through the roof.

The thing is, from what I’ve read of Syriza is that they actually do plan to make changes to the system (at least as far as they can). They have been vigorously campaigning against corruption and tax avoidance. They aren’t saying they will default - its part of a bargaining solution to restructure the payments so Greece can grow. Austerity basically dooms Greece economic growth for at least another decade.

What crushing taxes do you think you are talking about?

Did you read my previous cite? It read, in part -

Regards,
Shodan

That still leaves from half to 2/3 of the shortfall resulting from classic overspending.

I was composing my reply when you posted.

The pdf at the other end of the link fails. It comes up as a 404.

In any event, I’m referring to taxes now, not six and seven years ago.

The tax cheats should be prosecuted, including those who served in government such as such as this clown.

I can only hope the latest government ends it — pie in the sky — but we live in hope. Well, those of us not living in Greece.

I’m not some wide-eyed naif, innocent of the world and its wicked ways. My point is that stopping the corruption and trying to cure the madness by purposefully adding intractable misery upon an entire population is wrong and ultimately futile. Merkel’s Germany, of all countries, should know that.

Greece’s creditors will end up will less money than they would have if they had imposed less draconian conditions.

Try this.

http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/Margarita.Tsoutsoura/research/TaxEvasionWebAugust.pdf

What makes you think that will help?

Cite.

Regards,
Shodan

Is there any evidence that Greeks are now paying their taxes at a greater rate?

ETA: apparently not.

It’s not that hard to find a more timely cite, is it? From April 2014:

Greece to Hit 2014 Tax-Income Targets, Revenue Chief Says

Another article from April 2014

Here’s Alex Tsipras’ open letter to German citizens. Some key quotes:

It certainly reads like he’s preparing to denounce all the bailout loans as odious debt and try to renegotiate the terms at least. With maybe Russia as an alternative lender if this results in Greece being shunned by the Euro banks.

Dude - or his English translator - is a hell of a salesman.

I’m not convinced. If Greece repudiated its debt, it would become way safer to buy Greek bonds : instead of adding some billions more to a massive debt that is extremely unlikely to ever be repaid in full, you would loan to a country in a clean state, debt-free. I’d most certainly rather loan money to Greece after it defaulted on its current debt than before. Of course, confidence in the future Greek economy would be very low, but then again it already is.

And inflation in Greece would only be a problem (for people buying Greek bonds) if Greece tried to issue bonds in Drachmas. If they issued them in Euros, or even dollars, it wouldn’t be in itself an issue.

I mean, I’m sure Greece would have big problems borrowing, but I doubt they would be bigger than now.

I can’t see how it couldn’t be worse than it is now, to be honest. Can you walk me through your logic here? I mean, for one thing, how would the Greeks issue bonds in a currency other than their own? Why would anyone buy them once the Greeks shifted to their own currency and defaulted on their debt? How could there not be massive inflation (hell, if they did this they would WANT inflation, at least initially and not hyper, because that would help them magically get rid of some of their debt which would now be in their own currency).

They wouldn’t get a clean slate either, at least that’s not my understanding. They would go from, say, 300 billion in Euros debt to 300 billion in Drachmas, which would certainly be less but wouldn’t be nothing. Even printing the money to magic away the debt they would still owe something, and zero investors would trust them at that point, at least in the short and medium terms. They would also have to have some sort of bank holiday when they had their people trade in their Euros (at some ridiculous initial exchange rate) for the new currency, which wouldn’t make their own folks too happy (this is why there are runs on banks currently, because people are hording Euros in anticipation of just this eventuality).

Admittedly, I’m no economist, so I’m probably missing a lot here. And it seems Greece is leaning this way (or making noised they might be, though that could be a bargaining chip for concessions from the EU/Germany) so walk me through how you see this playing out (or any economically minded 'dopers, feel free…where is Hellestal, Rickjay or Sam when you need them?? :p).

Borrowing in one currency while getting income in another is a recipe for massive foreign exchange risk. Just ask the Aussie farmers in the 80s who borrowed in Swiss francs (for a lower interest rate) and got crushed when the aussie dollar went down against the franc.

XT Eurobonds and Brady bondshave been around for a long time. Issuing bonds in a foreign currency is not a particularly good idea though.

Sounds good, but at the same time, he’s planning to roll back the measures that Germany forced on Greece, to make their accounting make sense.

Government spending isn’t de jure a mechanism for boosting the economy. Fundamentally, all it does or is meant to accomplish is to delay market collapse, while whatever caused the original crisis is solved, so that market confidence is restored, before the government goes bust or inflates the currency beyond repair. Government isn’t a growth industry. You can’t government spend yourself back into being a healthy, growing economy.

But the Greek economy didn’t tank because market confidence was down. It’s not like the US, where GM, the housing market, and the banks all were at risk of going under, or like the majority of Europe, where the banking sector was dragged down by the US banking sector. To be sure, that affected Greece, but it also took out the government of Greece, itself, since it was being run in an unsustainable manner (and cooking the books, to help it exascerbate its own situation).

Macroeconomics tends to ignore the topic, since there’s no math that can be applied, but the cause and solution for depressions and recessions is in identifying and correcting real-world issues. Playing around with taxes, quantitative easing, and etc. are all, fundamentally, little more than backseat driving. It can help prevent some accidents, and it can help to get things back on the road, but it’s not the primary factor in deciding what goes where.

Japan, for example, has been trying to boost its economic growth since the mid-80s, using all manner of Keynesian strategies, and failed. The US used those same strategies, during the recent recession, and we’ve basically pulled through just fine. The difference is that, really, the foundation of the US economy is solid. The housing market and GM needed to course-correct, and those affected other industries temporarily, but corrections were made and all of the other industries of the land were on stable foundation. Whereas, Japanese industries relied on purely top-down, authoritarian direction in the 1950-1980 era, and built 4-5 companies up to own every single industry in the land, leaving it so that when the leaders retired, there was no one to promote up except yes-men with no vision, no unaffected industries, and no one with the vision to realize that the problem was a lack of vision. They’re basically boned, until a generation with some mojo ascends to the top of the ladder.

But even besides that, government spending needs to be tailored to keeping the economy propped up, to have any value as an economic tool. If you take the money and dump it into the military, for example, then you’re letting your growth industries - which are required for market confidence - continue to starve. Sure, you’re keeping people employed, but in a job that they’ll lose as soon as the government tries to cut back, putting everything back where it had been. Whereas, in the US, we sent money to everyone, employed or otherwise, so that we weren’t creating a temporary class of employment that would vanish. We also invested in emerging industries and stable industries, creating opportunity for growth - to take in the employees from collapsing industries - and maintaining the employed workforce in fundamentally secure companies.

In the case of Greece, Germany was able to force onto Greece some best practices. They also tried to enforce that the Greek government only have enough money to do the things they should do, to recover. The Greek government, instead, took that as meaning they had to be “austere” and cut back on the things they were doing that were simply wasteful. The hope would have been that they cut those out altogether and instead spend money on things that were useful and would repair the economy. Instead they wasted money “less”, and spend the remainder just paying back the debt.

There’s a cognitive effect that has been noted in people that people who aren’t very good at something often believe that they are good at it. To recognize that you’re doing something poorly requires knowing and understanding how to do it well. If you know and understand it, though, you wouldn’t do it poorly.

Mr. Tsipras’ argument makes sense in the context of his knowledge and understanding of how Greek economics work. It is internally consistent and sound. But it’s a poor argument in the context of a properly managed economy. Possibly, he’s just making the argument that he has to out of political necessity, but from the German point of view, saying, “But you didn’t really give us a chance!”, isn’t much of a pitch if they know well enough to know that there was every possibility of chance, it was just squandered.

To a large extent, what needs to happen, is that Germany needs to step in and personally reform the Greek economy, since it’s likely that the Greeks don’t have the experience with modern, growth economies that Central and Northern European governments do. Unfortunately, that’s sort of like saying that what needs to happen is that mankind should sprout wings and learn to fly. It’s not very likely to happen anytime this decade.

Cool, thanks! I never heard of them. One of the many holes in my knowledge has been filled. :slight_smile:

I suspect the previous government’s efforts along the lines of allowing “Germany … to step in and personally reform the Greek economy,” is a large part of the reason why SYRIZA won the election in the first place.