Re the violent Greek protests at the EU austerity measures as part of the bailout plan I’m curious, with the Greek economy more or less upside down at this point , there really doesn’t seem to be any other logical way for Greece to go to get a bailout and stay part of the EU.
What exactly do the protesters think *should *happen at this point?
They think their benefits shouldn’t be cut and their entitlements reduced, were I to guess. Their economy is essentially melting down (again) and they are scared and angry, and they are being told that billions are going to be cut in programs and wages. It’s going to be pretty grim.
-XT
I listened to a couple of union leaders on the BBC yesterday; I think they’re expecting the Justice League to intervene.
Greece is a poster child for the problems caused by a bloated public sector and too much government spending. Of course, US fiscal liberals don’t pay a lick of attention to this, as they call for ever more government spending in the US.
Maybe the EU should invade Greece.
So if there’s a country with a good economy, whose government spends liberally on the public section, you’ll be convinced otherwise?
And if there’s a country that spends a lot on, let’s say, defense, and uses government to crack down on immoral acts, and let’s large companies run rampant with little regulation, you’ll be convinced conservatism is wrong?
Huh?
Go on, answer the question.
The alternative is that the Greeks could plug all the holes in their system which allowed massive tax avoidance by wealthy people and big business, rather than by pushing the burden onto the lower earners who didn’t cause the crisis to begin with.
And that’s the kind of radical thinking that forced the sensible people of Greece to impose a military government, to prevent just that sort of anarchy!
One of the slogans is to “let the Croesus-es pay!” i.e. let the rich pay.
The socialists want to spend themselves out of the crisis.
Fiscal liberals?
Well, I don’t know the low earners are blameless. They’re as contributory to the corrupt, sloppy 3rd worldish political culture in Greece as the ‘elites.’ Lack of popular realism relative to reforms helped the Greeks get into the utterly catastrophic condition they are in. Of course the ‘leadership’ knuckling under at the first sign of any strike in the public sector over the past decade was at least half the problem.
Or they have some magical idea that they can say “stuff it” to the bondholders and see nice little German pension funds with their nice little bonds get stuffed, and then expect to continue to spend vastly more than the gov’t takes in (getting that from where?)
Now apparently three innocent bystanders are dead because a bank was firebombed. I wonder if this will dampen the protests at all.
As a reader interested in answers to the original poster’s question, this kind of hijack is not appreciated. And please note that I agree with your statement more than I disagree.
Their solution is for the people who caused the crisis – bankers, assorted plutocrats etc. – to pay for the damage caused to the global economy, not pensioners and low income people. The bank rescues have meant a huge transfer of funds from the citizenry of affected countries to their financiers, the the biggest looting of the public purse in history. A small group of incredibly rich people are being bailed out by everybody else and everybody else, at least in Greece, are showing signs of having had enough. Yes you can point fingers at Greece’s welfare state, the age people can retire and whatnot and you can definitely make a case that things need to change there but the unions and the protestors definitely have a point.
If you are living well beyond your means as a country, how does it become the problem of the persons who hold your debt to be responsible for your profligacy?
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You have no idea what’s actually going on, do you? It’s some shadowy evil council of financiers. Greek politicos simply spent giant piles of cash they didn’t have, in order to buy themselves a nice comfy welfare state. They also set up a tax system so onerous people felt compelled to cheat or avoid it just to stay afloat. When these two systems couldn’t be reconciled with the massive economic growth they needed to keep ahead, they borrowed huge sums of cash.
Hell, the financiers the only honest ones in the game. They lent money at the open rate Greece’s purse would bear, until Greece finally couldn’t borrow any more. And now that the bill is coming due, the same people who eagerly supported more spending beforehand are shocked, shocked, and busily demanding that somebody else pay for their stuff.
There’s no question that Greece’s system of government needs reform. But a big chunk of the Greek government deficit, like every other major economy, has been incurred bailing out their banks. It would be a lot fairer if bank owners, investors, top executives etc. shared the pain a little bit. Maybe even in relation to their ability to repay the losses. Businesses are supposed to go bankrupt when they fail. The business owners and employees are meant to be out of work if they fuck things up. It’s an essential part of the free market system. Only in the case of the financial meltdown that didn’t happen to the people and the enterprises who failed. Instead they got the biggest welfare payments ever seen. Failing businesses and the people who owned them have been propped up by the taxpayer, their losses made good at 100 cents on the dollar/Euro by everybody else. So while the Greek and other countries’ welfare state spending and deficits can rightly be blamed for some of the problem, it isn’t all of the problem.
I’m happy to let people read what I’ve posted in the various threads on Greece and in various other financial threads and judge for themselves whether or not I know what I’m talking about.
Scapegoating.
Look, I’m currently going through personal bankruptcy. My situation was NOT caused by bankers and plutocrats, but rather by ME spending money I didn’t have, hoping that someday my situation would improve and I’d be able to repay it. It didn’t improve, and I can’t repay it. My fault entirely.
The people of Greece are playing the same game. Spending money they don’t have to live better than they would otherwise. It isn’t the Bankers or assorted plutocrats that did this, it’s the people of Greece doing it to themselves.