Are you sure that’s the stone you want to throw, considering the vitreous nature of your house?
Feminists I know do not like those women very much, and yes would like to destroy the patriarchy so they can’t exploit that.
I do want to point out that a while back I was given a supposed list of women’s entitlements and hypocrisy. When I read it, most if not all of it were examples of the “women are wonderful” effect or benevolent sexism. This is part of the problem, and both of these things are things that many feminists do not like (like jsgoddess mentioned).
Also, some of the complains that MRA groups complain about ARE issues that are taken by feminist groups, such as custody rules, domestic violence, and prison rape, as has been repeated over and over (and over) in this thread.
Slut shaming is mainly a girl-on-girl crime and it’s done to uphold the value of sex. Women who put out too freely debase the currency of pussy thereby undermining the value which all women can bargain it for. (A Cold War Fought by Women) And just because some women will use anything they can to be bitchy to other women (High-Status Co-Eds Use ‘Slut Discourse’ to Assert Class Advantage)
Men on the whole don’t mind sluts. They just tend not to want to marry them. Which is perfectly fine, because men are not like a vending machine where you put in sex and get relationship out, and nobody is entitled to affection or relationship from anybody else.
I’m unaware of anyone claiming that there are not other problems.
In my experience men also play a role in slut-shaming, especially from the pulpit.
Reducing women to sex objects is part of the problem, not the explanation.
Just using words like “slut” to describe women who enjoy and own their sex lives and sexual desires is misogynistic.
This thread is the gift that keeps on giving.
Funny how you cut out all the stuff which documented how slut shaming is a girly Matriarchy thingy. Or rather, I suppose it’s the evils of The Patriarchy forcing women to behave like bitches to each other.
You just can’t win. Men being bad to woman: it’s The Patriarchy. Women being bad to women: it’s The Patriarchy. Men being good to woman: it’s bad and it’s The Patriarchy. Women being bad to men: it’s The Patriarchy. Women being good to men: well we haven’t seen that one yet, but I’m going to go out on a limb and say it’s bad and it’s The Patriarchy.
Now send some sluts my way, so I can get full benefits from my white hetero-oppressive cis-normative patriarchal privilege!
When I’m doing presentations, sometimes I will invent examples to show the audience precisely the events or attitudes that the presentation is trying to combat.
You are the PowerPoint example slide of this thread.
[QUOTE=Rune]
Slut shaming is mainly a girl-on-girl crime and it’s done to uphold the value of sex.
[/QUOTE]
I think you’re ignoring how men feel about all the sluts who aren’t having sex with them, or don’t seem like they might. For a very particular narrow definition of slut-shaming - the kind that happens about mutual casual acquaintances in casual conversation over drinks, basically - I think you’re probably right.
But men slut shame their daughters and sisters and exes, and public figures, and for god’s sake they slut shame the victims of crimes, right?
It seems unfair to the vast majority of men to cite Rush Limbaugh as an example of a man, but he’s certainly been known to indulge in slut-shaming.
And the bit earlier where people tried to make fun of LinusK for being humorless and not recognizing obvious sarcasm just got a whole lot funnier.
In general not to my knowledge. Men will usually say something like: she’s fun, but not marriage material.
Or you know, rappers go on (and on and on) about hoes and bitches and how they’re not loyal. Don’t know if that is a reflection of slut shaming in American black culture. They sure seem to like them slutty when you watch the videos, so perhaps it’s more a reflection on how men tend to not have a great deal of respect for gold diggers. There’s quite a lot of gold-digging-whore shaming videos on You Tube (1 , 2). I wonder how staged they are.
I know he was joking in that line, but he’s joking in order to ridicule the notion of patriarchy and privilege, the very things that the rest of his posts are championing.
He talks about men liking sluts but not wanting to marry one, about how he doesn’t understand patriarchical gender roles but men don’t want to be victims (with the subtext that women do), about women being so lucky to get lumped in with children (as opposed to just “people”), etc. He embodies it, then can’t see it, then mocks the idea as if others are just inventing things.
[quote=“Rune, post:1167, topic:725390”]
Funny how you cut out all the stuff which documented how slut shaming is a girly Matriarchy thingy. Or rather, I suppose it’s the evils of The Patriarchy forcing women to behave like bitches to each other.
You just can’t win. Men being bad to woman: it’s The Patriarchy. Women being bad to women: it’s The Patriarchy. Men being good to woman: it’s bad and it’s The Patriarchy. Women being bad to men: it’s The Patriarchy. Women being good to men: well we haven’t seen that one yet, but I’m going to go out on a limb and say it’s bad and it’s The Patriarchy.
Yes! You are getting it!
“The Patriarchy”, or whatever you want to call it, isn’t a thing that men do to women. It’s a system. It’s a system that affects everyone, a game that everyone plays because everyone can be worse off for not playing along. Men do it. Women do it. Everyone is involved in this screwy, harmful, limiting way of understanding the world.
This isn’t a men vs. women thing, really. It’s just a system that doesn’t really care who wins and who loses.
It’s absolutely true that women enforce “slut shaming” because controlling sex is a way of maintaining scarcity value. But this is part of a larger system, one where women have limited opportunities outside of finding a man to support them. It’s not a coincidence that taboos around premarital sex have dissipated almost exactly as economy opportunities for women have expanded.
I would argue that the real origin of all of this is small scale agriculture, which requires child labor (even today farms are exempt from many child labor laws), makes inheritance (and thus paternity) a big deal and generally incentivized keeping the baby producer under lock and key. We see many different patterns in non-agricultural societies, and of course our own sexual norms transformed completely as soon as we got off the farm.
sven, may I claim some measure of vindication from your post in that this is really an economic issue, not primarily one of sexual politics?
(and no, neither you nor anyone else should thereby be expected to sign on to the inevitable screed about upper-middle class white women claiming more victimhood than working class men)
two of favorite sayings “no matter what they’re talking about, they’re really talking about money,” and “this was addressed by Marx, not Freud”
I think culturally we absorbed the economic issue and made it one of morality. Going against the grain is a sin, not just a bad idea. Shameful, disgusting, perverting the natural order, inherently wrong, against God’s plan, etc.
I want to call it THE BORG. I know THE BORG is a system and persons aren’t individually to blame for it. However it is a system which puts men in a position of power and privilege and women in a subservient position, and this is a picture which I just cannot recognize in the real world. And when one points out the many glaring flaws of THE BORG theory (women get better educations; women have larger buying power; women gets child custody over the children which men are supposed to reign over like a patriarch of old; men are portrayed in commercials and sitcoms like silly irresponsible children; preferable they should just go to their “man-cave”; women are considered wonderful; women get smaller sentences for the same crime; pay/rape statistics have been showed to be bogus; men dies earlier; more men commit suicide; more men are sent to prison; more men are homeless; more men did on the job; men are sent off to foreign shit hold to die for their country; etc.), they are merely turned around in such a way that THE BORG can absorb them. In fact this is classic 101 conspiracy theory tactics – presented with challenging evidence, the conspiracy theory will always enlarge to engulf the challenging evidence and people as being part of the conspiracy.
I wonder if at this point THE BORG theory is even falsifiable.
Feminists: Enforcing gender norms is part of patriarchy.
Rune: Nuh uh! lists lots of things that are a result of enforcing gender norms See? Women benefit!
Nothing about “enforcing gender norms” requires those gender norm enforcements to harm women at the expense of men. As has been said quite a few times in this thread, enforcing gender norms harms men and women.
To repeat, this time with more font styles! Enforcing gender norms harms men and women. Men and women! Both men and women! Not just men! Not just women! Both! Harm! Bad!
Ok. Well we just established that women slut shame each other to keep up the price of pussy so they can extract more resources from men. And women are also busy slut shaming men with words like player, fuckbody and whatever. They even have an app for it called Lulu. So I guess now Facebook is part of THE BORG.
How does that translate into a system where men hold political, moral and social power and dominance over women? I get no political/moral or social benefit when you slut shame each other. Women wield a moral rod of power when they slut shame, and it’s entirely for their own profit.
I’m a man and I like sluts, I’d like there to be more sluts, and I prefer if you didn’t make sluts unhappy. So all in all, I’m a big fan of you stopping your slut shaming ways. I’d also prefer not to jump through hoops and spend a lot of money to get pussy, so I’m all for debasing the value, and I don’t particular like getting called a player or have my named smeared on Facebook by a slut shaming app which only women can access.
All I see is women trying to dominate and control men. This would be better characterized as The Matriarchy enforcing gender norms to maintain the privilege and benefits which women under those norms are entitled to.
Slide 2.