Anti-gay Christians are merely bigots

[TennisMenace]

Wolf pup,

You said…
There’s a great deal of speculation about the historical Jesus and who he really was, but Christianity is based on the sort of idealized exemplar of love and compassion that you describe above. And that’s a great thing to base a religion on. But here’s my question. Given the individual and social harm that bigotry wreaks on society, including anti-gay bigotry for all the reasons that I described before, driving people to misery, alienation, and even suicide for reasons that are completely not their fault but the result of bigoted societal attitudes, what would Jesus do? The idealized Jesus of love and compassion you just described. What would he do? How, for example, would Jesus vote in a referendum to ban gay marriage? Would Jesus “not promote legislation” that ensures equality and happiness for all? Would he just stay the hell out of it? Would he vote against it? Would Jesus go around hoping for a constitutional amendment to really and truly stick it to the gays for all time? Does that sound like your guy?

I will answer your question as best as I can, but remember, I’m not trying to convert you, nor do I believe my answer is the only answer acceptable…but it is mine:

If Jesus came today instead of two thousand years ago, I believe he would follow the same method to fulfill his purpose here. What is that?

1. Jesus came to lead people to the Father. And the way to the Father is through Him. He did many signs and wonders to authenticate his mission so that people would believe he is the Messiah and the Son of God. I believe this would be his primary purpose.

2. He would come to help the afflicted. Jesus would heal, restore, and make whole many who came to him afflicted in mind, body, or soul.

3. Jesus would die on the cross again in order to pay the penalty that we justly deserve for our sins. He would take our sins upon him and take the beating for us again.

4. Staying on the topic of sin, Jesus would encourage us to SIN NO MORE. Many of the people he healed, he left them with these words, “now go and sin no more.”

God cannot encourage anyone to sin. He has made his will known pretty clearly through his word regarding what is sin to him. As I have said several times, we are encouraged not to commit impure sexual sin, which I believe encompasses fornication, adultery, beastiality, sodomy, and homosexuality.

I cannot possibly see Jesus promoting any legislation that is opposed to his word pursuant to the scriptures. I hope this answers your question.

TM

[vivalostwages]

@TennisMenace

Wolf pup,

You said…
There’s a great deal of speculation about the historical Jesus and who he really was, but Christianity is based on the sort of idealized exemplar of love and compassion that you describe above. And that’s a great thing to base a religion on. But here’s my question. Given the individual and social harm that bigotry wreaks on society, including anti-gay bigotry for all the reasons that I described before, driving people to misery, alienation, and even suicide for reasons that are completely not their fault but the result of bigoted societal attitudes, what would Jesus do? The idealized Jesus of love and compassion you just described. What would he do? How, for example, would Jesus vote in a referendum to ban gay marriage? Would Jesus “not promote legislation” that ensures equality and happiness for all? Would he just stay the hell out of it? Would he vote against it? Would Jesus go around hoping for a constitutional amendment to really and truly stick it to the gays for all time? Does that sound like your guy?

snip

God cannot encourage anyone to sin. He has made his will known pretty clearly through his word regarding what is sin to him. As I have said several times, we are encouraged not to commit impure sexual sin, which I believe encompasses fornication, adultery, beastiality, sodomy, and homosexuality.
snip

TM

I don’t see how all of those can be lumped together. Fornication is a choice, adultery is a choice–and one that can harm multiple parties, sodomy (meaning anal or oral copulation? That’s one definition) is a preference, bestiality is non-consensual.

Some may choose homosexual behavior. Most don’t.

Here’s another issue: There are deeply closeted gays and lesbians living under repressive regimes like those in Saudi Arabia or Iran; they don’t dare let anyone know they’re gay for fear of execution. Knowing full well what could befall them, do you still think they choose to be gay?

[TennisMenace]

@vivalostwages

I don’t see how all of those can be lumped together. Fornication is a choice, adultery is a choice–and one that can harm multiple parties, sodomy (meaning anal or oral copulation? That’s one definition) is a preference, bestiality is non-consensual.

Some may choose homosexual behavior. Most don’t.

Here’s another issue: There are deeply closeted gays and lesbians living under repressive regimes like those in Saudi Arabia or Iran; they don’t dare let anyone know they’re gay for fear of execution. Knowing full well what could befall them, do you still think they choose to be gay?

I previously gave what I thought was an explanation for this point you are bringing up when I referenced:

1. Man was made without blemish until sin entered the world, and then made in blemish
2. The sins of fathers are passed down to generations…

Honestly, I don’t have a third, but I will cut and paste part of an article from Gotquestions.org. This might help a bit, but probably not. For what it’s worth, I really do empathize with anyone who has this deep need for love and yet this is not permitted. I take no pleasure in anyone’s pain. Jesus did say that if you truly want to be a disciple of mine, you must, “Deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow Him…”

The closest I have come to denying myself was when I put off having sexual relations for four years after I came to know Christ. I believed I should wait until marriage and I did, yet I can recall many cold showers I took in the wait. Here is that article I referenced…

First John 4:8 says, “Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.” The “love” referenced here is the Greek agape. This type of love is the conscious act of sacrificing one’s own desires, comfort, and even well-being for the sake of another. It is the love that sent Jesus to die on the cross for our sins (Romans 5:8). And the love that led God to send Him (John 3:16). The greatest fulfillment of this love is to sacrifice one’s life for another (John 15:13).

That being said, those with homosexual attractions are in desperate need of love. Even if they agree with the Bible that homosexuality is a sin and resolve not to seek fulfillment of their sexual desires, they must still find love in other relationships—the self-sacrificing love of agape and the friendly companionship of phileo. When our emotional and social needs for love are met, we are less likely to seek fulfillment in unbiblical ways. It’s no different for single heterosexuals than for those with homosexual attraction.

Can someone with same-sex sexual attraction be healed and become heterosexual in thought, desire, and deed? It is possible, but it is not certain. Being saved and forgiven does not rid one of temptation. For the believer, as long as same-sex attractions are present, abstinence is crucial—as it is for anyone not in a heterosexual marriage. Believers should not condone sexual relationships outside of a heterosexual marriage, even as they show agape and phileo love.

It is a lie that all humans need sexual fulfillment (Matthew 19:12). It is a lie that sex equates to love. The God who created us insists that sex is an expression of love between a man and woman who are married to each other. Outside of that context, sex is harmful and very much unloving. If we love others, we will not encourage them to sin, bringing harm to themselves. Instead, we will follow the greatest commandment and provide for them the real love they need from us.

[puzzlegal]

@TennisMenace

…It is a lie that all humans need sexual fulfillment (Matthew 19:12). It is a lie that sex equates to love. The God who created us insists that sex is an expression of love between a man and woman who are married to each other. Outside of that context, sex is harmful and very much unloving. If we love others, we will not encourage them to sin, bringing harm to themselves. Instead, we will follow the greatest commandment and provide for them the real love they need from us.

we all know that many humans don’t need sexual fulfillment. But many do. Probably more do than don’t, at least among adults.

Gay people can create loving supportive relationships based on sexual attraction, just as straight people can. I think it is very counter-intuitive to decree that these are harmful, and it’s simply wrong to say that they are unloving.

[TennisMenace]

@puzzlegal

Gay people can create loving supportive relationships based on sexual attraction, just as straight people can. I think it is very counter-intuitive to decree that these are harmful, and it’s simply wrong to say that they are unloving.

As you know, I am merely one voice representing my interpretation of the words from the Holy Bible. I have said repeatedly that it is not my desire to win converts or to be voted Straight Dope’s Favorite Poster.

I can you tell my motivation is solely based on love- love first for the God I serve, and secondly, the love for my fellow man (i desire to share the good news to all men so that none would perish).

Obviously, if you “want” someone to tell you that the God of the Holy Bible says it is okay to live in a homosexual relationship, those voices are out there, and maybe I am wrong and they are right. You have to follow what you believe is the right course, and it may not be me. You are not hurting my feelings if you tell me, “Tennis, I think your words and interpretations are all wrong and I choose to not believe them!”

I will understand and add these words, “My respect and love for you is not determined on your acceptance of my beliefs. I hope you find peace in your life.”

TM

[puzzlegal]

Okay.

Tennis, I think you are wrong. And I think your wrong ideas cause a lot of harm to a lot of people. I respect that your goal is to help, not hurt, but I believe you are working against that goal.

By the way, I am a straight woman. I couldn’t “lie with a man as with a woman” if I wanted to. And I have little sexual interest in woman and will probably never experiment in that direction. I’m also married (to a man). So I am not looking for justification for my own life style.

[Robert163]

@TennisMenace

As you know, I am merely one voice representing my interpretation of the words from the Holy Bible. I have said repeatedly that it is not my desire to win converts or to be voted Straight Dope’s Favorite Poster.

I can you tell my motivation is solely based on love- love first for the God I serve, and secondly, the love for my fellow man (i desire to share the good news to all men so that none would perish).

Obviously, if you “want” someone to tell you that the God of the Holy Bible says it is okay to live in a homosexual relationship, those voices are out there, and maybe I am wrong and they are right. You have to follow what you believe is the right course, and it may not be me. You are not hurting my feelings if you tell me, “Tennis, I think your words and interpretations are all wrong and I choose to not believe them!”

I will understand and add these words, “My respect and love for you is not determined on your acceptance of my beliefs. I hope you find peace in your life.”

TM

The holy bible also says you stone your neighbor for adultery. I know, you are going to say, well that’s the OT, things changes in the NT. The problem with that rational is the prohibitions against homosexuality are also in the OT. So please stop telling us “what the bible says” until you start using the whole book without leaving any parts out.

[Hiker]

@Robert163

The holy bible also says you stone your neighbor for adultery. I know, you are going to say, well that’s the OT, things changes in the NT. The problem with that rational is the prohibitions against homosexuality are also in the OT. So please stop telling us “what the bible says” until you start using the whole book without leaving any parts out.

I have often been wondering about that: How relevant are the laws of the Old Testament for today’s Christians? Are they applicable in the same way as the New Testament is? Are they valid but only as long as the New Testament does not contradict them? Is there an “official” Christian anwer to this?
I am neither a Christian nor a Bible scholar, so I am presenting you with an authentic piece of my personal ignorance ready to be fought.

[Hector_St_Clare]

@TonySinclair

To be fair, Mosaic Law explicitly calls for the death penalty for homosexual acts. I’m willing to be educated, but I don’t believe it calls for the death penalty for lending or borrowing, or eating shellfish. So to say it only “slightly reinforces” bias against homosex is IMO grossly understating the case.

And if I’m not mistaken, the death penalty for adultery isn’t really for adultery, it’s for cuckolding. No problem if a man cheats with an unmarried and unbetrothed woman.

On the other hand, Jesus Christ explicitly 1) upheld the prohibition on lending money at interest, 2) overrode the dietary laws, 3) overrated the death penalty of adultery (and arguably, overrode the death penalty for a great many other crimes as well). Many of us would also say his death rendered the Mosaic law in general, null and void, but I know you disagree with that so we don’t have to re-argue the point.

[Robert163]

@Hiker

I have often been wondering about that: How relevant are the laws of the Old Testament for today’s Christians? Are they applicable in the same way as the New Testament is? Are they valid but only as long as the New Testament does not contradict them? Is there an “official” Christian anwer to this?
I am neither a Christian nor a Bible scholar, so I am presenting you with an authentic piece of my personal ignorance ready to be fought.

Romans 1:26-27
For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality

Jude 7
just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

1 Timothy 1:10
the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,
So, the NT has some negative things to say about homosexuality but it is just a garden variety sin like any other. You can lie cheat and steal and still make it to heaven. Adultery is a sin, right? Ever heard of a massive christian crusade to stop adultery? (corinthians verse)

[TokyoBayer]

@TennisMenace

Tokyobayer,

I reread your first question on race. Let me add, I believe God has made ALL humans in his image. Therefore ALL are equally important and ALL are loved by God. (God so loved the WORLD…) Thus, there is no better race, and anyone who thinks otherwise would have to support why they believe this erroneous thinking.

Slave holders used your same Bible to justify slavery of Blacks. This is just one of many examples how the changing culture has lead to the reinterpretation of the scriptures.

As it is, a number of the more liberal Christian churches have come to a similar change concerning homosexuality. Now that SCOTUS has ruled in favor of marriage equality, and more and more people are being exposed to gays, realizing that they are not, in fact, these horrible sinners, LGBT individuals will become more and more accepted into society. I think the direction of Christian churches will be to accept them more.

@TennisMenace

Yes, it does seem to be a useful strategy- scaring people to act. In fact, don’t you think our Feseral government uses this tactic continuously. For example, how often do you think our Federal government has put out information to arouse fear in U.S. in order to attain some objective, like justify spending more money for defense or enter some war, etc?

Do you really want to be seen in the same company as others who use scare tactics? I’ve heard this excuse by many religious people, and I don’t get it.

@TennisMenace

Regretfully, christians, in my opinion, have pushed people away from the churches and the Bible because of this intolerant hatred toward their fellow man.

It’s not only the hatred, it’s the intolerance shown by insisting on interpreting thousands-of-years-old text to call one particular group “sinners” without attempting to understand them or to take into consideration the progress made in understanding human nature.

@TennisMenace

Can someone with same-sex sexual attraction be healed and become heterosexual in thought, desire, and deed? It is possible, but it is not certain. Being saved and forgiven does not rid one of temptation. For the believer, as long as same-sex attractions are present, abstinence is crucial—as it is for anyone not in a heterosexual marriage. Believers should not condone sexual relationships outside of a heterosexual marriage, even as they show agape and phileo love.

I would say that his demonstrates a lack of tolerance and plenty of hubris. There has been a movement by your fellow believers to frame homosexuality not as a noun, but rather an “attraction” in order to justify condemnation. Pretend to be nice and say you are hating the sin but loving the sinner, but you are still calling a group of people wrong, simply because of their nature.

In a point which you have steadfastly refused to address, there is a dark side to Christians condemning gays. LGBT youth are over represented among the homeless and the dead. Suicide and drug use are far too common as these children struggle to handle the rejection from their families and society.

In Utah, for example, LGBT youth expelled from their Mormon and other fundamentalist Christian church families are prevalent among the homeless. Volunteers report that each time there are public pronouncements from the pulpit condemning the “sin” of homosexuality, there is an upswing in the number of these youth getting kicked out of their homes.

You may see it as a matter of keeping the body of Christ pure, but I just see the dead bodies.

[Hiker]

@Robert163

So, the NT has some negative things to say about homosexuality but it is just a garden variety sin like any other. You can lie cheat and steal and still make it to heaven. Adultery is a sin, right? Ever heard of a massive christian crusade to stop adultery? (corinthians verse)

Thank you for these quotes. Based on what Hector St Clare wrote it seems to me that the relevance of OT laws for today is a matter of debate. But judging from your quotes it seems clear to me that the New Testament forbids (or at least rejects) homosexuality. No need to reference the Old Testament for that. And I suppose few Christians would deny that the New Testament applies today. So it does not strike me as very surprising that they reject homosexuality. What is bigoted about that? It is a religious dogma that you (and I) do not share. I do not think it would be fair to demand from a faithful Christian to change their beliefs only based on the fact that we do not share them. What we can of yourse demand is that they also accept that those who do not share these beliefs have *exactly *the same rights that they have. Those unwilling to accept that - and only those - are in fact bigots.

[Robert163]

@Hiker

Thank you for these quotes. Based on what Hector St Clare wrote it seems to me that the relevance of OT laws for today is a matter of debate. But judging from your quotes it seems clear to me that the New Testament forbids (or at least rejects) homosexuality. No need to reference the Old Testament for that. And I suppose few Christians would deny that the New Testament applies today. So it does not strike me as very surprising that they reject homosexuality. What is bigoted about that? It is a religious dogma that you (and I) do not share. I do not think it would be fair to demand from a faithful Christian to change their beliefs only based on the fact that we do not share them. What we can of yourse demand is that they also accept that those who do not share these beliefs have *exactly *the same rights that they have. Those unwilling to accept that - and only those - are in fact bigots.

Yeah, but when was the last time christians tired to pass a constitutional amendment to outlaw adultery? Or Cohabitation? Or Lying? 40 years ago you couldn’t find a single store open in america on a sunday. Well, a few, but mainly just hospital and cops and such. You know, the Sabbath, do no work on. Have the tried to start a constitutional amendment to outlaw working on Sunday? How many more examples do I need to exhibit the rather blatant hypocrisy in which they are so heavily invested? The Sabbath is — a lot — more important as a tenant of their faith, it’s one of the 10 commandments.

[jayjay]

@Robert163

The Sabbath is — a lot — more important as a tenant of their faith, it’s one of the 10 commandments.

Tenet. And while the 10C does say to keep holy the Sabbath, Christians do it on the wrong day. Just nitpicks…I’m almost 100% on your side on the actual issue.

[Robert163]

@jayjay

Tenet. And while the 10C does say to keep holy the Sabbath, Christians do it on the wrong day. Just nitpicks…I’m almost 100% on your side on the actual issue.

well, there are the Seventh Day Adventists…

[Hector_St_Clare]

@TennisMenace

Lear Jeff,

I know the Bible, in the First Testament, discourages one guaranteeing someone else’s debt (surety), but I’m not aware about lending and borrowing being a sin. I also am aware of this following from Got Questions.org:

Moses addressed this issue in the Old Testament. Essentially, the Israelites were not permitted to charge interest when they loaned money to an impoverished brother. They could, however, charge interest on loans made to other, more affluent Jews and to foreigners. This rule was part of the Mosaic Law: “If you lend money to one of my people among you who is needy, do not be like a moneylender; charge him no interest” (Exodus 22:25; see also Psalm 15:5). This prohibition against charging interest actually included “food or anything else that may earn interest” (Deuteronomy 23:19). The purpose of the law was two-fold: an interest-bearing loan would only exacerbate the plight of the poor, and God promised a blessing on the gracious lender that would far surpass any interest he would make. Additionally, at the end of every seven years, creditors were to cancel all the debts they were owed by fellow Israelites (Deuteronomy 15:1).

In the New Testament, Jesus tells us not to “turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you” (Matthew 5:42). He applied this principle even to our enemies in their time of need: “But love your enemies and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great” (Luke 6:35, emphasis added). Indeed, there are numerous passages throughout the Bible exhorting us to have a generous and giving heart, especially to the less fortunate. Moses taught his people, “If there is a poor man among your brothers in any of the towns of the land that the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward your poor brother. Rather be openhanded and freely lend him whatever he needs” (Deuteronomy 15:7-8).

Read more: What does the Bible say about lending money? | GotQuestions.org

Anyhow, I’m not aware of lending being a sin. Can you be specific? Thanks.

Oh, and thanks for the kind words addressed to me.
TM

TennisMennace lending money at interest has historically been considered a sin by Christians (usury). Do you think that prohibition still applies?

(I think it does, and that making money through interest is at some level a sin, but then again I’m something a few shades shy of a communist, and in my perfect world lending, banking and finance would be controlled by the state rather than individuals).

[Robert163]

@Hector_St_Clare

TennisMennace lending money at interest has historically been considered a sin by Christians (usury). Do you think that prohibition still applies?

(I think it does, and that making money through interest is at some level a sin, but then again I’m something a few shades shy of a communist, and in my perfect world lending, banking and finance would be controlled by the state rather than individuals).

Yes, that really worked out well for Jewish people spread across the globe in days gone by, didn’t it?

[Miller]

@Robert163

40 years ago you couldn’t find a single store open in america on a sunday.

Jesus Christ, Bob, where do you get this bullshit? No, most stores in the US did not shut down on Sundays in 1974.

[Robert163]

@Miller

Jesus Christ, Bob, where do you get this bullshit? No, most stores in the US did not shut down on Sundays in 1974.

ok, 60 years ago. but thats not really the point.

[TennisMenace]

@puzzlegal

Okay.

Tennis, I think you are wrong. And I think your wrong ideas cause a lot of harm to a lot of people. I respect that your goal is to help, not hurt, but I believe you are working against that goal.

By the way, I am a straight woman. I couldn’t “lie with a man as with a woman” if I wanted to. And I have little sexual interest in woman and will probably never experiment in that direction. I’m also married (to a man). So I am not looking for justification for my own life style.

Fair enough. I never said I have all knowledge, but I do work (and pray) hard to find wisdom. That pursuit keeps me young.