Anti-nuclear power idiots

I suspect that wherever they chose the site to be, it would then be called the “screw [wherever]” bill. Unless there was no legitimate study of multiple sites, it’s just Nimbyism.

Most places will have earthquakes over the period of decades. From what I’ve read, the containment vessels planned at Yucca could withstand a reasonable earthquake, and even if they didn’t, they’re high above the water table - the waste would take long periods of time to seep through the rock, and even if it does, the local water table is isolated - it all drains down into the basin the mountain is in and doesn’t go anywhere.

It’s true that future generations will have to keep an eye on the place - but what do you think is the bigger burden? Securing and maintaining a repository or dealing with the global warming the CO2 from the coal plants is affecting?

There was only a very cursory study of initial sites. All the selected sites (Nevada, Washington, and Texas) said “Not here!” Nevada had the the weakest congressional delegation, so Nevada got short listed. The “legitimate” study of the site is done by the NRC, who has a vested interest in finding an acceptable site and is restricted to only studying one site. Naturally, they find their one option is an acceptable option for lack of any other option. The EPA, who has no interest in finding an acceptable site, only in preventing another environmental disaster, is consistently putting up red flags.

Nevada is the third most geologically active state in the nation. A more complete analysis is available here. Nevada is a big caution zone (red, orange, and yellow), but whole swaths of the nation are generally inactive (blue and white).

The water table under Yucca Mountain isn’t isolated to Yucca Mountain. It flows all the way to Death Valley.

If I’m coming off as anti-nuke, that’s not my intention. I’m moderately pro-nuke, but Yucca Mountain is a Bad Idea. The good news (IMO) is that Nevada’s foot dragging has forced the nuclear industry to develop mid-term storage solutions that are capable of storing the nuclear waste for hundreds of years. There’s more than ample time to develop a better long term solution.

Let me just throw in that I’ve been unable to find anything to support what I said, so kindly ignore it.

What forum are we in? Pit? Good.

Fuck me, but I can’t stand when either side comes out and paints all the objections and concerns as vapid and simplistic as the OP. Now, I get that here in yon Pit the OP isn’t a douchebag, because this isn’t the place for subtle or even-handed thought. There certainly are a plethora of capital D baggies out there who give no more thought to the question than nuclear is teh suxors.

On the same token, the spent-too-long-with-an-unsafe-microwave view of nuclear power as a relatively harmless energy panacea with no major waste- or terrorism-related concerns isn’t even up to the Freeper’s standards of intelligence.

I spent years working on the Yucca Mountain Environmental Impact Statement (EIS for all you NEPA fanatics). A good chunk of that was in comment review hell — every single one of you fuckers that wrote in response to a meeting or publication had to be answered. Every. Fucking. One. Of. You. That means both sides of the issue had to be treated with all due seriousness (part of my responsibilities was making sure DOE’s categorizations and answers were responsive). So take your oversimplifications and shove them up your perpetual motion machine.

Again, this is not an attempt to bite back at the OP, I know very well the frustration of knee-jerk reactions (both pro and con). But calling Yucca “adequate” and “up to the task,” thinking that’s answering the question, and excoriating people for disagreeing by painting them as ignorant makes me… makes me… damn, what’s that word that ends in –gry?

Dear Og, EIS comments can be hell. I work on California Environmental Quality Act reports sometimes, which is the bigger, more all encompassing version of an EIS. The ignorance you find in the comments is mind blowing. The way facts can be spun by industry and interest groups is even worse.

Hungry?

Mmmmm…nuclear waste.

Fair enough. I’m not at all qualified to speak as an expert on Yucca mountain. It may have tons of flaws. But in this case, the attitude seems to be “well, this other method has flaws, therefore let’s stay how things are” ignoring the massively greater (IMO) problems that coal generation creates.

Maybe Yucca mountain isn’t the best place. If not, we should be spending a decent amount of money figuring out where is, in an honest, objective, scientific manner.

Maybe there are more nuanced anti-nuclear views out there, but I haven’t come across them. Every argument I’ve heard against nuclear power is essentially “we can’t do it perfectly, so let’s maintain the status quo”, “not in my back yard!”, “nuclear!? that’s like… chernobyl right? AND 50 FOOT MOTHERFUCKING RADIOACTIVE ANTS”, or some unrealistic optimistsm that alternative energy can do the heavy lifting in any reasonable timeframe.

It was the best choice among those studied for a variety of reasons, the biggest one being that it’s fairly close to the Nevada Test Site…which is, of course, where nuclear weapons were tested already. It has a lot of positive aspects, contrary to the folks saying this was all about fucking Nevada. There have been myriad studies done on the site and it’s viability, again, contrary to the folk who think this has just been glossed over for supposed political reasons.

It’s moot though…Yucca is dead and so we will go with an even less viable option of hundreds of scattered repositories in situ, which is what we currently have, with, perhaps, the option of wasting more billions in the future trying to find some other option which will be squashed yet again.

If you want more details about Yucca, here is a site I used in the recently revived zombie thread about Nuclear Energy in GD…it gives a good overview. It’s a DOE site of course, so it’s obviously suspect…

-XT

Just wanted to say amen to Rhythmdvl’s post. As someone who has worked on the legal side of the Yucca issues, one thing it ain’t is simple.

It is worth noting that the Nuclear Waste Policy Act permits only 70,000 metric tons of heavy metal to be placed in Yucca. That’s less than the amount currently being stored at various sites. That’s just a law, not a scientific limit, so it can be changed. But it was based in part on estimates of how much waste could be safely stored at Yucca. Yucca could probably hold more, but even this increased amount of capacity is not sufficient to accommodate disposal of waste very far into the future, and that’s assuming nuclear power generation isn’t greatly increased. That means that Yucca is—at best—a short-term solution.

It is not a solution for waste going forward which is one of the many reasons people are looking to alternatives. We can continue to sink billions into it, or we can start putting money into long-term solutions (possibly including some reprocessing of waste).

I think that the risks of nuclear waste, even if stored in shoddy facilities, are far outweighed by the risks of global warming and particular air pollution. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that Yucca is the best policy alternative.

Get other sources of info…seriously

I havent run the numbers for this…but it would NOT surprise me if that wasnt actually a true statement.

Take that for what it is worth.

I didn’t, actually, but I can see where you get that. My point is that such a time frame (decades) is seldom if every used by those who vocalize concerns about waste disposal. Apparently it isn’t scary enough to serve their designs.

This very evening, a BBC World News reporter doing a story on decommissioning of Bulgarian nuke plants stated that the waste would “remain radioactive for hundreds of thousands of years.”

Sure, having hot stuff for several generations IS a real reason for some worry. It is NOT, however, the near geologic time scales that the fear mongers would have us believe are at issue. Given a few decades, something might possibly go wrong. Given thousands of centuries, it is a virtual certainty that something will go wrong.

It also doesn’t exist yet so claims of its safety are a tad premature.

As stated here

It’s as far along in development (at the least) as carbon capture/sequestration and mass deployment of solar and wind technologies. IIRC the South Africans, China and I think the Germans have built test reactors.

-XT

Even if we shut down all the nukes right now, we still have the problem on existing waste. Yucca mountain is way better than any alternative.

(Don’t worry about the waste in storage at US facilities. Worry about the waste stored at your favorite corrupt failed state.)

Wind technologies are in widespread commercial use and won’t pollute wide areas for a long time when something goes wrong. Which with humans involved it will.

Having said that I believe the climate crisis is so severe and the consequences so frightening we have no option but to throw nuclear into the mix.

Let me rephrase what I said since I wasn’t clear. When I said ‘mass deployment’ I meant making up a significant percentage of over all power…say more than 10% of the total. IIRC wind currently hovers around 1%.

Since we have yet to deploy wind in sufficient numbers we don’t KNOW what the effect will be on those scales. We can only project. Same with solar. Also, there is the entire life cycle of the product to consider…again, we have no data since we haven’t, as yet, deployed on a sufficiently large scale to know.

The pebble bed reactor is much the same…there are prototypes, but until we put it into full scale production (which, due to our anti-nuke loonies WE probably won’t do), we won’t know.

I agree. But I don’t think it will happen any time soon…so, we best all hope the AGW folks are wrong and that we have a few more decades before things get critical. In a few more decades the magic pony tech MAY be ready to roll on the scales we need…which may mean we won’t need nuclear energy after all.

-XT

I love all this talk of how Yucca Mtn. has to be perfect for 10,000 years. We’re talking about a time scale twice as long as recorded human history. I’m going to go way out on a limb and say that at some point in the next few millenia we will probably figure out a way to put the stuff to good use. Failing that, I’m confident someone will invent a safer method of storage, seeing in just half that time we’ve gone from writing on clay tablets to being able to store the entire Encyclopedia Brittanica on a flash drive.

It DOESNT need to be perfect. Its not like we are talking about building a machine that runs unattended for a gazillion years.

You want a hunk of stuff that doesnt move much over time.

The pyramid builders did a pretty damn good job of that 4 thousand years ago give or take. They did it with manual slave labor on the SURFACE.

I suspect we can do a bit better…

Though, like you, I think we should just store the stuff responsibly and safely till the time comes when we can USE it. Believe it or not, its actually pretty damn valuable energy wise.

The alternative of course is to continue storing it at scattered sights around the country, closer to populated areas and in less studied places. This is what I was saying about the foolishness of rejecting a proposal because it’s not absolutely perfect when the status quo alternative is much worse.

Saying Yucca Mountain is a “good enough” solution because it’s the best is like saying having somebody drive a nail through your hand is “good enough” because the only alternative you’ve evaluated is having a nail driven into your temple. They’re both bad alternatives.

A list of 10 potential storage sites was created in December 1984. By 1987, the list was down to Yucca Mountain. They’ve spent over 20 years now evaluating Yucca and there are still major concerns about its suitability. You can’t say they managed to evaluated and eliminate all nine potential alternatives in three short years, while being able to say that a mountain on a faultline with a highly variable depth to water was clearly the best alternative.

The decision to use Yucca Mountain was purely political.

As far as the necessity of the million year time frame goes, it might not be necessary, but it’s standard set. You can’t evaluate it on a million year scale, see it fail, and say “Meh, good enough.” At least, not until there’s reason to think it will fail at other locations with that scale too.