Anti-Trump bigot?

[HurricaneDitka]

@Velocity

Oh, many haven’t thought it that far down the road yet. Right now they’re just pining hard for the shock and dismay on the faces of TV pundits on Election Night, and the Twitter/Facebook meltdown on social media, and the establishment giving a stunned, awkward concession speech on Election Night, with a “what-just-happened” deer-in-the-headlights look on their faces, and half of the nation going berserk.

But now to discuss the more nefarious elements of Trump supporters: It reminds me of how people were trying to name a ship “Boaty McBoatface” or of how people hijacked Mountain Dew’s “Dub the Dew” drink-naming campaign by voting “Hitler Did Nothing Wrong” to the No. 1 top of the drink-name list. Some people get a schaudenfreude kick out of deliberately voting in someone, or something, that is unacceptable, just to see the reaction. They *know *Trump is appalling, that’s *why *they want to see him in the Oval Office, to see the establishment’s horror.

I’ll admit to getting a little silent chuckle at the apoplectic anti-Trump crowd and their hyperbole. Anyone who can make leftists this dismayed, this filled with sputtering rage, can’t be all bad.

ETA: BTW, I blame 4chan for Boaty McBoatface and the Mountain Dew fiasco. And all that’s wrong with the world, or at least the Internet.

[Airbeck]

@HurricaneDitka

I’ll admit to getting a little silent chuckle at the apoplectic anti-Trump crowd and their hyperbole. Anyone who can make leftists this dismayed, this filled with sputtering rage, can’t be all bad.

Have a conversation with your Muslim, Hispanic, gay and/or female friends and loved ones and let them know how humorous you find their concerns about how much more difficult their lives will be under Trump/Pence. I’m sure they’ll share in your merriment and you can all have a big guffaw together about it.

As for the original thread topic, I’ll stick with my original post - Why do we need to hate any entire groups of people? Is hate of any group necessary? I think any statement in the form of

All ______ are ______

when the second blank is disparaging, is wrong. Wrong as in morally, and wrong as in incorrect.

[HurricaneDitka]

@Airbeck

Have a conversation with your Muslim, Hispanic, gay and/or female friends and loved ones and let them know how humorous you find their concerns about how much more difficult their lives will be under Trump/Pence. I’m sure they’ll share in your merriment and you can all have a big guffaw together about it.

As for the original thread topic, I’ll stick with my original post - Why do we need to hate any entire groups of people? Is hate of any group necessary? I think any statement in the form of

All ______ are ______

when the second blank is disparaging, is wrong. Wrong as in morally, and wrong as in incorrect.

I live in Utah, so most of my female friends and family members prefer Trump to Clinton. Same with the Hispanics I know well enough to discuss political inclinations with. I don’t regularly have face-to-face conversations with any Muslims or gays where politics is a topic.

I’d like to see Clinton supporters have conversations with coal workers after Clinton said, “we’re going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business”. Perhaps they could laugh about it too, but sadly, we don’t all get everything we want.

I agree with your thoughts about the formulation “All _____ are _____”.

[QuickSilver]

@HurricaneDitka

Maybe some of them find the tax plan he laid out the other night appealing. Maybe some feel like his border security and immigration reform message is important in an age of terrorism. Look, this is really basic stuff, I have a hard time believing you didn’t know he has actual rational policy positions. They’re on his website and in speeches he gives. Why is it hard to imagine people being attracted to those positions?

I understand that Trump has policy positions which include immigration reform, tax reform, trade reform… to my mind, none of them are rational:

• Building a wall (Mexico) and barring all muslims.
• Dramatically reducing taxes & deficit at the same time.
• Large scale infrastructure improvements & reduced spending.
• Placing tariffs of 45% on Chinese imports.
• Abandoning NATO agreements & increasing security.

I do not question whether millions of people are attracted by his policies. Obviously they are. I do wonder, are they rational or are they based on ignorance (at best)?

[iamthewalrus_3]

@Chihuahua

That said, the vast majority of people probably do not “choose” their religion at all. They are born into it, surrounded by family members and a social group that holds the same views, and adopt it as part of their identity and their overall world-view. I do not believe many people in the world actually look at the options and choose their religion as a conscious and willful act. I think this has a lot to do with the reason it is placed as a protected class, along with the fact that people can become fanatically violent about it.

To play devil’s advocate:

Does that mean that it’s bigoted to hate people who have applied no introspection or self-examination to their beliefs, but not bigoted to hate people who have done so, and selected a belief system other than that in which they were raised?

[HurricaneDitka]

@QuickSilver

I understand that Trump has policy positions which include immigration reform, tax reform, trade reform… to my mind, none of them are rational:

• Building a wall (Mexico) and barring all muslims.
• Dramatically reducing taxes & deficit at the same time.
• Large scale infrastructure improvements & reduced spending.
• Placing tariffs of 45% on Chinese imports.
• Abandoning NATO agreements & increasing security.

I do not question whether millions of people are attracted by his policies. Obviously they are. I do wonder, are they rational or are they based on ignorance (at best)?

There is a huge amount if ignorance in politics, and it exists on both sides of the aisle. They’re called “low-information voters”. In some cases they don’t know who the Vice-President is, or their own Representative. Some of them can’t name a single sitting Senator, or can’t distinguish their chosen candidate’s policy positions from those of their opponents. I don’t dispute that some of Trump’s supporters are low-information voters, just like I think it would be nuts to pretend that Clinton isn’t also supported by low-information voters. Is the claim that Trump’s supporters are uniquely or especially ignorant, or moreso than Romney & McCain supporters (or Obama & Clinton supporters)?

[Omar_Little]

@Doyle

It takes some big balls to post your rant here.

Here, as in this message board? No actually teeny weensy little balls could do that here.

[Velocity]

@QuickSilver

are they rational or are they based on ignorance (at best)?

Rational does not necessarily = good. People can support all sorts of horrible things for practical, rational, logical reasons.

[Velocity]

To respond to the overall topic of bigotry: There are many people on the political left and right who have a neatly tailored, packaged definition of bigotry whereby their own prejudices are not “bigoted”, but their opponents’ prejudices are.

[Airbeck]

@HurricaneDitka

I live in Utah, so most of my female friends and family members prefer Trump to Clinton. Same with the Hispanics I know well enough to discuss political inclinations with. I don’t regularly have face-to-face conversations with any Muslims or gays where politics is a topic.

I’d like to see Clinton supporters have conversations with coal workers after Clinton said, “we’re going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business”. Perhaps they could laugh about it too, but sadly, we don’t all get everything we want.

I agree with your thoughts about the formulation “All _____ are _____”.

So you don’t really talk to anyone with different opinions? I guess that does make it easier to dismiss everyone on the other side as apoplectic leftists. Maybe try to talk to a Muslim or a gay person. You might be surprised how your opinion might change about the apoplectic leftists if you try to talk to some. And I’m not talking about here on the dope, but real people you may see in real life, not message board caricatures.

As for coal minors. I don’t recall Clinton or any of her supporters saying their concerns were humorous. Can you cite when that happened? Fact is burning coal is a terrible way to get energy and we need to stop using it. Would you have advocated for keeping alive the whale oil industry once that was replaced by fossil fuels because of the poor whalers?

[Chihuahua]

@iamthewalrus_3

To play devil’s advocate:

Does that mean that it’s bigoted to hate people who have applied no introspection or self-examination to their beliefs, but not bigoted to hate people who have done so, and selected a belief system other than that in which they were raised?

No. Just the opposite. My point was that I am more willing to give the benefit of the doubt to someone who has never really examined (or had the opportunity to examine) their beliefs.

[Airbeck]

@HurricaneDitka

There is a huge amount if ignorance in politics, and it exists on both sides of the aisle. They’re called “low-information voters”. In some cases they don’t know who the Vice-President is, or their own Representative. Some of them can’t name a single sitting Senator, or can’t distinguish their chosen candidate’s policy positions from those of their opponents. I don’t dispute that some of Trump’s supporters are low-information voters, just like I think it would be nuts to pretend that Clinton isn’t also supported by low-information voters. Is the claim that Trump’s supporters are uniquely or especially ignorant, or moreso than Romney & McCain supporters (or Obama & Clinton supporters)?

Yes Trump supporters, on average, appear to be more gullible and ignorant. Significant percentages of North Carolina Trump supporters believe that Hillary is literally the devil, that if Trump loses it can only be because it was rigged, by ACORN which no longer exists, that they actually saw the Iran money video which does not exist, and more…

http://www.mediaite.com/online/new-poll-shows-trump-supporters-mostly-believe-whatever-he-says/

[HurricaneDitka]

@Airbeck

So you don’t really talk to anyone with different opinions?

Sure I do. You might have noticed the word “most” in the first sentence of my post. It means that some of them do not.

@Airbeck

I guess that does make it easier to dismiss everyone on the other side as apoplectic leftists.

I don’t think I claimed “everyone” on the other side was apoplectic. Obviously Clinton has millions of supporters, and I’ve only had a chance to read the opinions of / hear the thoughts of a miniscule fraction of them. Of those I’ve read / heard, I’d consider a small fraction to be apoplectic, but those were the funny and memorable ones.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@HurricaneDitka

I’ll admit to getting a little silent chuckle at the apoplectic anti-Trump crowd and their hyperbole. Anyone who can make leftists this dismayed, this filled with sputtering rage, can’t be all bad.

Unfortunately, that attitude almost certainly is a major factor in Trump’s support thus far - not caring about Trump’s (lack of) competence or experience or vision, but just enjoying the reaction which can also include enjoying what you imagine the reaction to be.

Personally, I think the leftist reaction is more commonly head-shaking bemusement over sputtering rage, but of course one can always cherry-pick the loudmouths. Anyway, this isn’t going for lulz over something meaningless like the name of a drink or a boat - the stakes here actually matter.

I feel somewhat tentatively relieved that the U.S. seems to be moving away from the brink. I wish I’d gone on record months ago with my belief that what would likely doom Trump is him brainlessly mocking someone sympathetic - I would have seemed prescient.

[Guest-starring_Id]

I head out for a couple hours and suddenly page 2’s almost done!

@HurricaneDitka

According to the polls, 40% of the country supports Donald Trump. If you’re incapable of engaging in constructive, critical discourse with 40% of the country, maybe the problem is on your end.

Nope. The problem’s on their end. There’s been two separate occasions over the past six weeks where I’ve gotten in conversations with people who say they’d vote for Trump if they were American. (I’m Canadian). In both instances I was eventually getting constantly interrupted with their bluster about immigrants and wall-building…hard to engage with that, after a while.

@QuickSilver

Okay, I’ve heard people say that. But what exactly does “shake up the establishment” mean? Shake it up in what way? What specific policies would they like to see implemented that are espoused by Trump? I mean, I’m sure we’d all like to see America Great and everything… but great is what specific ways and how would they go about accomplishing those goals?

Those are some loaded, scary questions.

@Velocity

But now to discuss the more nefarious elements of Trump supporters: It reminds me of how people were trying to name a ship “Boaty McBoatface” or of how people hijacked Mountain Dew’s “Dub the Dew” drink-naming campaign by voting “Hitler Did Nothing Wrong” to the No. 1 top of the drink-name list. Some people get a schaudenfreude kick out of deliberately voting in someone, or something, that is unacceptable, just to see the reaction. They *know *Trump is appalling, that’s *why *they want to see him in the Oval Office, to see the establishment’s horror.

I would have salivated at the chance at voting “Boaty McBoatface” or “Hitler Did Nothing Wrong”, but the thought of voting (if I was a Yank) Trump is so diametrically the opposite of that impulse. Yeah I get your point of schaudenfreude kicks, but (although I obviously have no empirical way of proving this) I’ll bet the contingent you describe isn’t as big as you think.

[iamthewalrus_3]

@Chihuahua

No. Just the opposite. My point was that I am more willing to give the benefit of the doubt to someone who has never really examined (or had the opportunity to examine) their beliefs.

I think we’re saying the same thing, but you’re saying we’re saying the opposite. Can you reread my quoted post and make sure I’m not saying the same thing you are? Or, perhaps, elaborate?

[Iggy]

@QuickSilver

Okay. So that’s one: Trump supporters want to be able to continue to purchase .223 caliber guns. What are some others?

There are some 55 million Hispanics in the United States (per 2014 US census bureau numbers) and about 9% of Hispanics oppose DACA (per Pew Foundation poll). That makes about 5 million Hispanics in the United States opposed to Obama’s DACA actions on immigration.

Though the minority among their racial/ethnic group, there are indeed Hispanics who support Donald Trump. And some cite “his unsparing views on illegal immigration will prevent people from jumping ahead of them in line for jobs or social services” as a reason to support Trump.

It is an argument from fairness. The rules might need to be changed, but whatever the rules are they should be enforced uniformly rather than disregarded as it applies to certain populations. Some of those who have been waiting in line for a visa feel taken advantage of when those who did not follow the rules get a special exemption.

I’ve had discussions about immigration issues with Mrs Iggy’s Colombian family. When you discuss the issue without disclosing which candidate supports which stance they tend to have a mixed opinion. Not surprising because Hispanics are a diverse people… not to be assumed to all share the same beliefs, you know. Because thinking ALL Hispanics support X is a bigoted statement.

[penultima_thule]

[quote=“Jimmy “Popeye” Doyle, post:20, topic:762355”]

I’m not a bigot. I hate bigots. I wish they’d all go back to bigot land where they came from.
[/QUOTE]

(MAD spoof 1972 IIRC)

[Bryan_Ekers]

@penultima_thule

(MAD spoof 1972 IIRC)

What’s the connection?
To the thread, I mean.
Yeah, to the thread.

[QuickSilver]

@HurricaneDitka

There is a huge amount if ignorance in politics, and it exists on both sides of the aisle. They’re called “low-information voters”. In some cases they don’t know who the Vice-President is, or their own Representative. Some of them can’t name a single sitting Senator, or can’t distinguish their chosen candidate’s policy positions from those of their opponents. I don’t dispute that some of Trump’s supporters are low-information voters, just like I think it would be nuts to pretend that Clinton isn’t also supported by low-information voters. Is the claim that Trump’s supporters are uniquely or especially ignorant, or moreso than Romney & McCain supporters (or Obama & Clinton supporters)?

Yes, that is the claim. And not simply my claim:

Who are Donald Trump’s supporters? -

The single best predictor of Trump support in the GOP primary is the absence of a college degree.

They want to wage war against interior “outsiders”:

The classic definition of authoritarianism implies a tradeoff—more security for less liberty—but MacWilliams says it’s also about identifying threatening outsiders and granting individuals special powers to pursue aggressive policies to destroy them. The best predictor of Trump support isn’t income, education, or age, he says. In South Carolina, it was “authoritarianism … [and] a personal fear of terrorism” that best predicted Trump’s support across the state.

They live in parts of the country with racial resentment:

“That Mr. Trump’s support is strong in similar areas does not prove that most or even many of his supporters are motivated by racial animus,” Cohn writes. “But it is consistent with the possibility that at least some are.”

So in keeping with the topic of the OP, is it fair to point out that many of Trump’s supporters are motivated by ignorance steeped in bigotry and fear?