While I can’t claim to speak for all “Second Amendment funamentalists”, I don’t think you understand the logic all that well. You appear to have skipped a step or few. For starters, manson1972 and I don’t believe the Tacoma PD are fascists. I don’t think they’re tyrants either, and I suspect he does not as well. So where does that leave us in your “you should be defending him” analysis? What happens if I don’t agree that “ICE detention center = tyranny”?
Seeking asylum is not illegal immigration. Trump is illegally making asylum seekers wait to apply, then charging them with a misdemeanor but treating it as if it was a felony.
Your false claim was that it was “virtually the same” when it is not. Trump has changed the rules regarding how to apply for asylum, changed rules on how how to treat applicants, (pretending that misdemeanors are felonies), changed the rules on how to treat children. Those are not close to even “virtually” the same.
Not that it justifies the actions of the deceased, but in what specific way(s) is he “treating it as if it was a felony”?
Yes, you’ve hit on the problem. If you argue that the Second Amendment grants citizens the right to use deadly force to fight government tyranny, but you refuse to acknowledge the right of left wing groups or individuals to do exactly that, then you reveal your underlying assumption that conservatives have a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence. You reveal that your support of the Second Amendment is not really based on the principle of the right to bear arms, nor on the idea that citizens should be able to defend themselves against government overreach, but on the desire to advance and defend conservative policy goals. The attacker in this case clearly felt that he was fighting tyranny. You don’t agree that the Tacoma PD and ICE are tyrants? OK, so? This other guy over here has the inalienable right to use deadly force against government tyranny, and unless we all agree on what constitutes tyranny, he has as much right to shoot up an internment camp as you. If the Second Amendment is really there to give citizens the right to oppose government tyranny, then this is the outcome. This is what you support.
As I cited upthread, undocumented border crossings have always been treated as a misdemeanor, with immigrants being quickly released pending prosecution. The Trump admin has decided to throw the book at every undocumented immigrant, holding them in detention pending adjudication of their cases, the way you would a dangerous felon. This is why there is a “crisis” at the border now. Treating undocumented immigrants as felons has been considered unproductive and needlessly harsh by previous administrations. But under Trump, everyone crossing the border is locked up in deplorable conditions (as reported by DHS and HHS own OIGs, also as I cited upthread) and families are separated. This is a human rights catastrophe caused solely by the Trump administration’s policies, and intended as a deterrent to immigration.
On page 3 and i still can’t get what the debate is about. Is there serious dispute that the gunman’s actions were…bad?
Or are there people here holding that Antifa is in fact a good cause and the guy is a martyr?
CliffNotes version please.
I have no problem holding people responsible for their actions. All people.
Willem Van Spronsen committed some serious crimes. Politics aren’t an issue. If he was alive I’d be saying he should be spending a long time in prison.
Donald Trump has committed some serious crimes. Politics aren’t an issue. I say he should be spending a long time in prison.
I don’t have a double standard in how I think criminals should be treated. But I see a lot of conservatives do have one; they think there should be a more lenient standard for conservatives. When a conservative commits a crime, they obfuscate until the media attention dies away and then go back to blaming everything on the liberals.
Conservatives want to turn this single criminal into a representative of all opposition to the Trump administration.
Did you read this post at the top of the page? It’s got your CliffNotes right here:
Antifa is at least arguably a good cause. This guy was too ineffective to be a martyr.
I disagree. We shouldn’t be fighting crime with crime. We should be opposing Trump by using the law.
Remember that guy who brought his gun into that pizza place to break up Hillary Clinton’s Pizzeria Basement Child Sex Ring? Were his actions… bad?
Of course his actions were bad, because literally everything said about HCPBCSR was hilariously and obviously untrue. However… if it WERE true, if there WERE children being held in the pizzeria basement, if they WERE being sold for sex, if it WAS run by Hillary, this dude would be hailed as a hero. Rightfully hailed as a hero.
This gunman attacked a place that was actually doing the thing that he wanted to stop. No ridiculous belief in patent nonsense going on here. These detention centers are actually mistreating human beings. Is this guy going to be hailed as a hero? Nope, and he’s gotten all the punishment he can ever possibly receive.
OTOH, if he managed to free a bunch of people, without killing any guards or getting killed himself, I’d give that dude a big high five.
And intends to change the rules again tomorrow with an automatic denial of asylum for anyone crossing more than one border to get here, unless they’re victims of human trafficking.
The Republicans are above the law. Trump could torture someone to death on national television and he’d never be punished.
I’m not sure what my beliefs have to do with what the gunman believed.
Besides, your opinion on the matter is suspect because you cannot clearly state that you are against fascism.
And as a bonus question, can you clearly articulate what “tyranny” would need to exist before you agree one should take up arms against it?
Exactly. You weren’t there, I wasn’t there, neither of us has ever met the man. But since when has The Truth ever stopped ignorant accusations from Alt-Right facists in America who love it when acid drips through their teeth?
It’s not like it’s difficult question to answer either.
…and if he can’t, then why is there a gun in his closet?
Immediate incarceration.
= = =
Just to clarify, Trump has begun treating asylum seekers as if they were committing a felony, resulting in his separation of parents and children.
Guys waving guns and bombs are committing felonies.
I am having trouble following the discussion. If I am against fascism, should I be fire-bombing ICE centers and beating my ex-wife, or not?
Regards,
Shodan
No, but you should be able to clearly state that you are against fascism.
Can you define what you mean by “fascism”?
Regards,
Shodan
… and without disingenuous straw-man analogies.
(For all we know, he isn’t competent to fire-bomb sirloin steak.)