Any better solutions than prison for people who commit crime?

Person commits an unacceptable act. We lock them up in a prison with other horrible people for variable periods of time. During this time they get the wonderfully rehabilitating experience of living with hundreds of horrible nasty people under pretty nasty conditions. Then we release them back into society.

We punish people for doing unacceptable things. We do not do much to help people learn and grow to become better, to heal become healthy. A happy healthy person does not do horrible unacceptable things.

Some people cannot be healed. Some can.

It costs us as a society a lot of money to keep nasty people locked up all their lives. Why should we pay to support, house, and feed people who have violated the rules of our society?

I don’t have any definitive answers, but I am pondering some solutions I have read about.

  1. Let’s develop some realistic methods of rehabilitating and helping criminals become better people. There must be programs that have some measure of success. Make them go through schooling and achieve a certain degree of enhanced education. This would not have to be expensive. We could give them access to computer based educational software and carefully track their progress. Anyone who refuses to participate or work hard…
  2. A person violates the rules of a society and refuses rehabilitation, remove them from society. Renounce their citizenship. Deport them. They will no longer be a burden on us financially.

i can’t give any specific suggestions for how to improve the current system re: rehabilitation, but i think that the prison population is a huge, untapped, labor force.

it may take a lot of money & resources to figure out how to tap it effectively, but i think it might be worth it.

at the very least, if this could be done, it may make the penal system partially self-supporting.

I’ve often thought the prison system needs to be changed drastically. I think any prisoner who was convicted of a heinous crime and didn’t get the death penalty, should simply be warehoused in a maximum security facility for the rest of his/her natural life–no pretense of rehabilitation.

I think that non-violent drug offenders should pay heavy fines and be prevented from holding jobs which impact the lives and safety of regular citizens.

I think white collar criminals should be punished with unusually severe probation: they should have to teach math, finance, accounting, etc., in desperately poor school systems. These criminals should have their freedom tied to how many of their pupils are able to get a good education and good jobs.

I think youthful offenders should be sentenced to military style bootcamps run by former military personnel and be taught a blue collar trade if they don’t join the military. I don’t necessarily agree that a teenager should face the death penalty, but if one is convicted of a crime that calls for the death penalty, the teenager should be tried as an adult but get at least 25 years, with lifetime parole.

I don’t know how many of these ideas are feasible, but that’s what I would do if I was in charge.

Well, are you ready to initiate a slave labor force, then? Most of the people spending time in prisons are not well-educated, don’t have valuable skills, and are not fit for much more than manual labor. To get that labor out of them, they would require a degree of oversight far more expensive than any worth to their labor. Not to mention a healthy dose of coercion to get them to do anything.

I work in a maximum-security prison, and I see these things firsthand. It’s wonderful when we get a white-collar criminal who’s motivated to do paperwork in the medical clinic, but that’s by far the exception rather than the rule.

As for warehousing them for the rest of their lives, that is really, really expensive, especially as they age and need more costly medical care.

As for deporting the non-rehabilitatable ones, where the hell do we send them? Who wants them? I mean, Castro sent us his hardcore prisoners once, but who else will be so dumb as to take them?

I see the problems of Correction up close every day, and I don’t have any easy solutions.

QtM, MD

How can we ensure that criminals will actually go through these programs, without locking them up first? Any ideas?

In many Middle Eastern countries, they punish most crimes with stoning, amputation, or beheading. I seem to recall them having fairly low crime rates. :wink:

Jeff

How about we just keep prisoners a lot more isolated from each other?

The various “Supermax” prisons operate on this principal. It’s a preposterously expensive approach.

Personally, I think the Americans should decriminalize most minor drug offenses, with a strengthening in employer rights to demand drug tests and summarily fire those who fail, i.e. drugs are legal, but taking them incurs an economic and social penalty, not a criminal one.

Ever since I visited my first prison (no, not THAT side of the bars ) I’ve never believed that they’re seriously intended for rehabilitation any more than a crowbar beating would be. It’s either punishment, pure and simple, or Learn To Be A Hardened Criminal University.

well, what about the fact that not all laws deserve to be laws. Some crimes are victimless (except for society which has to watch them), so trying to coerce someone into being ‘remorseful’ probably isn’t going to work unless you use mind control tactics of constantly exposing them to biased info. Not only that, but what about the rage & segregation people will feel for being arrested & humiliated, should people just forget that? i remember hearing a story of a friend of a friend who was arrested for possessing anabolic steroids. he lost his job, he got probation, and his wife left him & took his kids. Why would he need to be ‘rehabilitated’? if he caused another citizen as much mental damage as the ‘good guys’ caused him he would be in jail for life.
I think that this whole mentality that the cops are the good guys & the criminals are the bad guys needs done away with too. there are certain levels of law breakers. Some are naive, some are dangerous, some are stupid, some are self centered, etc. But once you are told ‘you are a bad guy’, it probably becomes a self fulfilling prophecy (that reminds me of the sociological study of the saints & the roughnecks). And the law isn’t divine, it is just a tool to enforce mass agenda. So automatically assuming it deserves to be respected isn’t overly fair. Good & bad aren’t determined by unaccountable bureaucrats who pass laws without reading them first. The cops are just attack dogs, its the politicans who write the laws.

There is a way to attempt it- probation. And in my experience, nearly everyone who ends up sentenced to prison has previously been sentenced to probation. They end up in prison either becasue they didn’t comply with the conditions of probation or becasue they committed another crime.

I’m not exactly sure on the particulars and just which classes of crime this would be useful for but I’d like to see some sort of public humiliation make a comeback (ala the stocks of olden days but perhaps a bit more humane). Take the juvenile petty criminal and rather than dump him in Master Criminal University (aka prison) chain him to a post (suitably protected from the elements) in his neighborhood for a day with a sign nearby explaining his misdeed. I don’t know why but I have a sneaking suspicion such a thing would be more bothersome (and thus more a deterrent to committing a crime) to him than the prison system but it’s just a hunch on my part.

mole remember the lesson of Braer Rabbit “pul-eese don’t throw me in that briar patch”

Prison is humiliating for some folks. IME, Most of those tend not to find themselves there. (the Publicist who just got sentenced to a couple of months in jail for example, seems to be mortified at the thought, however, for many of my clients, their moms, dads, sisters, brothers etc have been locked up before and it’s just another of the family conditions. At my family gatherings, it’s “Brian couldnt’ come 'cause he had to work, we had to hold it at Liz’s ‘cause Marks’ on call”, in their family it’s “Cousin Jerry’s doin’ a nickle up at Q, so he won’t be there, we have to hold it at Tommie’s 'cause Brenda’s on tether”

Some rehab works. But, like any other situation, what works for one person doesn’t necessarily work for another, and what didn’t work this time for that person might work next time.

As a wise man (Former head of the DOC in MI) said “we need to figure out first who we’re afraid of vs. who we’re mad at”. We don’t like any crime, but not all of it results in serious danger to the population.

Super max’s and boot camps appeal to folks who like to think of a punishment, grueling etc. I remember doing searches re: longer term data on boot camps showing poor results, but still, the concept is out there and expanding. Shrug.

Prison, being seperated from loved ones, having every minute of every day controlled by some one else is punative.

I’m a big advocate of probations (as doreen mentions), being a chance to seperate the ‘easy’ cases (‘ok, so I shouldn’t drink anymore, I got it’) from the harder ones (‘ok, so I shouldn’t drink as much anymore, I got it’). I see more in creativity in sentencing these days, jail + treatment center+ probation + community services etc.

Remember, even in the medical field, where one’s dealing with chemical reactions and so on, the exact same treatment doesn’t have the exact same results for each person, and yet we don’t toss the whole shebang out.

Ok, you really want to make a difference in our prison population? Then let’s spend a LOT more money on some serious drug and alcohol rehab. Frankly, about 30% of our prisoners where I work are drug and alcohol offenses, repeaters at that.

A lot of them are busted for “dealing” but unfortunately the legal definition of “dealing” is often based on how much substance they’re caught with. 30 pills? That’s more than a 2 day supply! You must be a dealer! Hard Time for you!! When in actuality the addict would never dream of selling a single precious dose, and those 30 pills might last less than a day and a half, given his voracious appetite for drugs.

And yes, drug offenders need punishment, because there need to be serious consequences to their behavior if they’re ever going to recover from substance abuse. But with punishment only, we just lock them up longer and longer, and at great expense. Spend a quarter of what we spend to lock them up on intensive treatment, and the relapse/re-incarceration rate will drop.

And stop re-incarcerating for single episodic relapses! The natural history of the disease of addiction and recovery from it is often one of relapses, which diminish with time, then stop if proper treatment is continued! Do not automatically yank parole for a single relapse. Yank it for a pattern of relapses which indicate non-compliance with the treatment program. I’ve seen individuals who had put together 6 months of clean time, had a single “slip” and then end up back in for 10 years! A month or 3, or even a year, sure, to remind them of the dire consequences, but a decade at $20K a year? Good grief.

Ranting done.
Bye-bye now

Deport them whither?
I agree with this solution for foreign residents in my country.
But a much greater number of criminals in any country are native to it.

um, capital punishment?

all breeding programs produce currs.

human breeding is among the most random, (and often down-spiralling) programs.

why not just say: this one is a lost cause, and use the money not spent housing it to possible help one who might be salvaged?

yeah, yeah, all life is sacred - right! :rolleyes:

Not saying this applies everywhere, but in my state it may appear that someone was re-incarcerated for a single relapse (since that was the charge the person pled to or was found guilty of) when in fact there were other issues involved. And since those other issues don’t appear most of the parole paperwork, I’m sure they also don’t appear on whatever is sent to the prison authorities.

and Qadgop, i"m looking at this from a different angle, than you (I prosecute parole violators) , but I’m not sure more money spent on drug treatment will help. At least twice a month, I come across the following

  • parolee gets arrested for a felony charge of possessing or selling drugs
  • parolee is offered a deal in the criminal court. The deal consists of a guilty plea to a felony with a felony sentence of say 2-6 years. The sentence does not start immediately.If the parolee finishes an 18 month residential program, the plea will will be changed to a misdemeanor and the sentence is vacated. If the program is not completed, a warrant is issued and the sentence starts.
    -parolee also gets the same deal on the parole violation.
    -parolee is picked up from jail and taken directly to the program which has a bed waiting
    -parolee leaves the program, knowing that the 2-6 year sentence is hanging over his or her head.

I come across the following scenario even more often ( a few times a week)

-parolee get violated
-parolee wants to be released from jail and mandated to go to a drug program
-parolee was already sent to anywhere from two to five programs prior to being locked up and left each one.

I don’t think spending more money on drug treatment will do anything about those two scenarios. Some people just don’t want treatment, at least at this point. More money for treatment won’t change that .And some money spent on treatment is simply wasted. I’ve seen people with no history of using drugs and no current drug charge offered the deal in my first example-it’s simply a way to avoid prison.

I think maybe Qadgop is being slightly conservatvie in his estimates(but then very high security prisons may well have a differant offender profile composition).

Where I work I would put the number of drug related offenders at least 60%.These may not be offences dircetly drug related, but could be offences comitted to obtain the wherewithall to purchase drugs.

In the UK we try to make imprisonment the last resort, konwing full well that probation is more likely to lead to reform.

By the time they arrive in jail, the prisoner will have gone through community service, they will have done probation, they may have done semi-secure living in hostels, and all those have failed.

Our population is going up, for a variety of reasons, but it is incredibly rare to get a first time offender, formerly holding down employment, in jail.

What is happening is that offenders have benefitted from a more considered sentencing policy and are now returning for longer and longer periods.

It is true that a large chunk of offenders have poor education, and few if any marketable skills, it would probably shock folk on this board to know just how low their intellectual abilities are, forget the idea of the ciminal mastermind, most of what they do is mean, petty and banal.

We have large teams of psychologists, drug workers, employment seekers and after release these agencies continue to work with ex-offenders, but they still keep on coming back.

When you consider just how much in money a junkie needs to maintain themselves, and the damage they cause getting it, it would be cheaper on the public, to keep them inside for good.

One thing I have noticed is that the younger the offender, the less well educated, serious offenders are starting out far younger than in recent times past, most have been at it since they were 10 or 11, and thats when formal schooling stopped.

There needs to be a more coercive education system to deal with them, truancy is a serious issue and probably has more to do with fuelling a nascent career in crime than most any other factor.

As for those actually in jail, they mostly tend to get fed up with the stress and uncertainty their lifestyle produces when they reach their late 20’s of 30’s but they will generally continue, since they have no other options, until they are arond 40 ish.

So one option might be to keep repeat serious offender inside until they are in their 40’s, another would be to have state run industries employing such people.

The state run industry would be attractive becasue it would solve the main problem that ex-offenders have, finding employment.
It could be made a condition of their freedom(licence) to stay in employment in the state run company for a set period, any behaviour that results in dismissal from that employment would result in immediate return to jail.
The terms of work within such companies would mean that offenders would have to do everything that any regula employee would have to do, turn up on time, meet performance criteria and all the rest, in return they would be paid a reasonable living wage.
The ex-offender would be expected to hold that job down depending on the terms set in a contract by the courts, and would be based upon the offence.

There is actually no reason why the state should operate such companies, I’m sure it would be possible to have profit making agencies to do this and I would envision the whole dovetailing into current employment withint prisons themselves.

I would also set no time limit on the sentence a prisoner would serve, the prisoner would have to complete their period of jail to become eligible for outside employment and if they could not hold down that job whilst under supervised freedom they would keep returning to jail to requalify until such time as they were able to hold down that job, thus they would only ever gain their full freedom by working for it.I

There must be a better way. The US imprisons about twelve times as many of its citizens as the Scandinavian countries. Yet these countries are among the most civilized and safest places to live on the planet.

The fact of the matter is that the US is an extremely sick and brutal society from whichever angle you wish to analyze it. It produces twisted and desperate souls in prodigious numbers and is in deep denial about what it is all about.

But for starters, we should legalize all drugs. The evil caused by the illegal drug trade and the persecution of the users of these drugs, which cause far less social damage than alcohol and tobacco, far exceeds the negative social consequences of their use. We should, of course, discourage the use of all chemical substances which have a negative effect on people’s health and the social fabric. We should use the same techniques which have proven successful in decreasing the consumption of cigarettes.

You mean showing really really gross pictures of blackened lungs to 5th-graders?