Any Canadian Dopers know where I can find out about drunk driving on private property?

[bengangmo]

From my layman’s recall of the law in New Zealand (not exactly relevant right?) you can’t be charged with drunk driving on your own private property.

What you CAN be charged with however is something along the lines of “being unfit to be in charge of machinery”, which would also apply to that farm ATV, the tractor that you are using to “feed out” the front end loader that you are digging a hole with or whatever if you are pissed while using it…

[Cat_Whisperer]

@Wilbo523

@Cat_Whisperer

Thanks for all the good information, peeps. I can see the logic behind the private property DUI laws - you can actually do a lot of damage in your own driveway.

Aside from the safety of others, if I want to do a lot of damage to my property, that should be my right. The state should not be able to come and arrest me because I decided that I wanted to destroy the pavilion I built in my front yard with my Lincoln town car.

I can see a little leeway on arresting someone in the parking lot of a tavern owner, but I would say you might need the tavern owner to request charges be made, as its his property you are potentially damaging. The arrest based on what “I might do” on a public roadway is overreaching by the state.

I meant damage like running over your own kids or someone else, or driving your car into your host’s garage or something like that - damaging your own property with your own car doesn’t really concern me (although as Claverhouse says, you can end up costing the state a lot of money doing stupid things on your own property).

[Omar_Little]

@Cat_Whisperer

@Wilbo523

Aside from the safety of others, if I want to do a lot of damage to my property, that should be my right. The state should not be able to come and arrest me because I decided that I wanted to destroy the pavilion I built in my front yard with my Lincoln town car.

I can see a little leeway on arresting someone in the parking lot of a tavern owner, but I would say you might need the tavern owner to request charges be made, as its his property you are potentially damaging. The arrest based on what “I might do” on a public roadway is overreaching by the state.

I meant damage like running over your own kids or someone else, or driving your car into your host’s garage or something like that - damaging your own property with your own car doesn’t really concern me (although as Claverhouse says, you can end up costing the state a lot of money doing stupid things on your own property).

I understood what you meant…please see my caveat to my statement.

[Omar_Little]

@alice_in_wonderland

@Wilbo523

The arrest based on what “I might do” on a public roadway is overreaching by the state.

Eh - I disagree. It’s really easy to not drink and drive. Like, stupidly easy. I think that’s why Canada has a no tolerance policy on this type of thing - it’s so easy to avoid there’s really no excuse.

So, what is the charge? Attempted driving under the influence?

If I am shopping in a store, and have a handful of items, but look poor and destitute, should I be arrested for attempted shoplifting? I mean, it appears that I’m going to do it, so you better stop me and arrest me before I leave the store.

[alice_in_wonderland]

@Wilbo523

@alice_in_wonderland

Eh - I disagree. It’s really easy to not drink and drive. Like, stupidly easy. I think that’s why Canada has a no tolerance policy on this type of thing - it’s so easy to avoid there’s really no excuse.

So, what is the charge? Attempted driving under the influence?

If I am shopping in a store, and have a handful of items, but look poor and destitute, should I be arrested for attempted shoplifting? I mean, it appears that I’m going to do it, so you better stop me and arrest me before I leave the store.

The charge here is DUI. Even if you pass out in the back seat of your car if the keys are anywhere near your person you’re going to be charged. I think if you throw them in a shrubbery and then pass out you might be OK, but even that might not be OK.

Essentially, I believe if you’ve been drinking the law states you should stay the hell away from your car or anyone else’s car, unless it’s a taxi.

[Muffin]

From the top court in British Columbia: R. v. Toodlican, 2008 BCCA 269

[3] Second, it is not a defence that the offence occurred on band land. Impaired driving is a Criminal Code offence, the application of which is not restricted to highways or to public land. It is applicable to private land and to band land: See R. v. Ignace (1998), 103 B.C.A.C. 273 and R. v. Jones (1961), 130 C.C.C. 190 (Alta. C.A.).

[Muffin]

@alice_in_wonderland

@Wilbo523

So, what is the charge? Attempted driving under the influence?

If I am shopping in a store, and have a handful of items, but look poor and destitute, should I be arrested for attempted shoplifting? I mean, it appears that I’m going to do it, so you better stop me and arrest me before I leave the store.

The charge here is DUI. Even if you pass out in the back seat of your car if the keys are anywhere near your person you’re going to be charged. I think if you throw them in a shrubbery and then pass out you might be OK, but even that might not be OK.

Essentially, I believe if you’ve been drinking the law states you should stay the hell away from your car or anyone else’s car, unless it’s a taxi.

Section 234(1) of the Criminal Code includes a prohibition against having care or control of an automobile while one’s ability to drive a motor vehicle is impaired by alcohol or a drug.

It is a question of fact as to whether or not one is in care and control. Have a look at the Supreme Court of Canada’s decision in The Queen v. Toews, [1985] 2 S.C.R. 119. I have bolded the test that courts throughout Canada apply.

This Court has recently considered the question in Ford v. The Queen, 1982 CanLII 16 (S.C.C.), [1982] 1 S.C.R. 231. Ritchie J., speaking for the majority, said, at p. 249:

Care or control may be exercised without such intent where an accused performs some act or series of acts involving the use of the car, its fittings or equipment, such as occurred in this case, whereby the vehicle may unintentionally be set in motion creating the danger the section is designed to prevent.

10.          There are, of course, other authorities dealing with the question. The cases cited, however, illustrate the point and lead to the conclusion that acts of care or control, short of driving, are acts which involve some use of the car or its fittings and equipment, or some course of conduct associated with the vehicle which would involve a risk of putting the vehicle in motion so that it could become dangerous. Each case will depend on its own facts and the circumstances in which acts of care or control may be found will vary widely. In Ford, the appellant's vehicle and others were in a field open to the public. A drinking party was in progress in the car, and the appellant had occupied the driver's seat and had turned on the ignition on various occasions to operate the heater as the party progressed. These facts were considered sufficient to establish care or control. In the case at bar the vehicle was on private property and the respondent was not in occupation of the driver's seat. He was unconscious and clearly not in de facto control. The fact of his use of a sleeping bag would support his statement that he was merely using the vehicle as a place to sleep. There remains the fact that the key was in the ignition and that the stereo was playing. Strangely enough, however, there is no direct evidence that the respondent put the key in the ignition or turned on the stereo, and the evidence is that the last driver of the vehicle was his friend, who drove him to the party and who was to drive him home. I consider that in view of all the circumstances described above no adverse inference should be drawn in this case on the basis of the ignition key evidence alone. It has not been shown then that the respondent performed any acts of care or control and he has therefore not performed the actus reus.
    

[elbows]

I think you’re both a little bit right.

I think she could be charged, but only if, and when, the owner of the property calls the police to complain. At that point they’d act. If no complaint, and she stays on private property, they could care less, basically.

It’s like parking illegally at the mall, unless you’re in a fire zone, no ticket from police. Unless the mall owners call them in, they aren’t policing it.

[Gary_Robson]

@Wilbo523

So, what is the charge? Attempted driving under the influence?

If I am shopping in a store, and have a handful of items, but look poor and destitute, should I be arrested for attempted shoplifting? I mean, it appears that I’m going to do it, so you better stop me and arrest me before I leave the store.

Unfortunately, we have a plethora of laws that look only at the possibility that you might have intent to do something wrong.

Example 1: I’ve had too much to drink and I know it. I have no intention of driving or using my vehicle. I go to the vehicle to get my iPod, so I can listen to music while I sober up. *** I can be arrested for being “in control” of the vehicle while under the influence.

Example 2: I have had nothing to drink. My BAC is zero. I’m at a friend’s house for dinner. He tells me that he bought a bottle of single-malt scotch, had one drink from it, and doesn’t like it. He gives me the bottle. I take the bottle home with me in my truck. Since the truck doesn’t have a trunk and I don’t want the bottle rattling around in the bed of the vehicle and breaking, I put it in the cab with me. *** I can be arrested for “open container.”

Example 3: My brother is a licensed locksmith. He calls me and says he’s having a problem. Could I please take him his lockpick set? I’m pulled over on the way there for having a headlight out. The lockpicks are visible on the seat next to me. *** I can be arrested for possession of burglary tools.

None of these have ever happened to me, but any of them easily could (although my brother isn’t a locksmith anymore). There’s no wrongdoing. There’s no intent of wrongdoing. But there are laws that second-guess intent.

[Omar_Little]

Interesting how you folks, up there in the 51st state, let the government chip away at your freedoms like that.

[Cat_Whisperer]

@Wilbo523

<snip>

I understood what you meant…please see my caveat to my statement.

Sorry, I just meant to clarify my own earlier statement that I meant damage to people and property.

[Cat_Whisperer]

@Wilbo523

Interesting how you folks, up there in the 51st state, let the government chip away at your freedoms like that.

That’s funny; I look at what everyone from the US posts, and wonder when you guys lost all your freedoms.

[ChrisBooth12]

Can the police in Canada enter your private property? How could you ever get caught the police would have no right ot be there in the first place

[elbows]

Yes, under pretty much the same circumstance as in the U.S., with probable cause, with a warrant, in an emergency, gas leak, yada, yada.

[Omar_Little]

@Cat_Whisperer

@Wilbo523

Interesting how you folks, up there in the 51st state, let the government chip away at your freedoms like that.

That’s funny; I look at what everyone from the US posts, and wonder when you guys lost all your freedoms.

I can still get drunk off my ass and drive around on my ranch if I want to with no intereference from the police.

[alice_in_wonderland]

@Wilbo523

I can still get drunk off my ass and drive around on my ranch if I want to with no intereference from the police.

Well jesus - I’ve just discovered what’s been missing from my life! If only I could get pissed up and tool around like a hillbilly, my life would be so much more complete!!:rolleyes:

Goof! :)

[Muffin]

@ChrisBooth12

Can the police in Canada enter your private property? How could you ever get caught the police would have no right ot be there in the first place

It is the same in the USA as in Canada; when a police officer sees a crime in progress, he can enter onto private property.

Just swap out drunk driving with stabbing and you’ll get the point, e.g. “A man was on his front lawn stabbing a woman, when a police officer happend by.” Would you expect the police officer to refrain from entering upon the property? Of course not.

[Spud]

So, where does the line get drawn? Lets say I just got a new car that I’m really excited about and I safely and soberly park it in my garage. I have a few (or several drinks) to celebrate and then decide to go to said garage with the door closed (even locked if you prefer). Since I’m so proud of my new toy I open the blinds to the big window overlooking the street so others can see my new pride and joy. So, I’m sitting in my new car admiring things with a drink in my hand and a cop drives by and sees me… can he kick down the door and arrest me? Does it make a difference if the garage door is up… keys in the ignition listening to the radio or in my pocket?

Clarification #1: No I don’t think this would ever happen in real life but I’m interested in where private property changes from inside to outside and if there is a difference.

#2: Your party gal (in the OP) is a real piece of work.

[Cat_Whisperer]

@alice_in_wonderland

@Wilbo523

I can still get drunk off my ass and drive around on my ranch if I want to with no intereference from the police.

Well jesus - I’ve just discovered what’s been missing from my life! If only I could get pissed up and tool around like a hillbilly, my life would be so much more complete!!:rolleyes:

Goof! :)

You’re probably gonna have to pop that kid out to fit behind the steering wheel again first.

@Spud

<snip>

#2: Your party gal (in the OP) is a real piece of work.

Yeah, she really is. I don’t expect I’ll ever be hanging around with her again (because we’ll turn around and drive home again if she shows up where we are).

[Spoons]

@Spud

So, where does the line get drawn?

As I said above, insofar as a real piece of private property is concerned, I don’t think the police would bother unless a complaint was lodged. And even then, it would be circumstance-dependent: in your hypothetical, you’re sitting in your new car on your land with a martini glass brimming with gin–well, if you’re not planning to drive anywhere and you just want to sit in your new car and you can explain that, no harm, no foul. Enjoy! The police have better things to do than to deal with you.

In the case of not-so-real private property (as the parking lot of a bar might be), it’s not uncommon for the police to wait on the street. If you walk out of the bar reeling and puking and falling down, and get in your car, then they might take action. But otherwise, they’ll wait until you’re on the public roadway. That way, they have provincial and federal statutes with which to charge you.

As for “lost freedoms,” perhaps an American legal Doper could chime in as to what state statutes say about “care and control while impaired,” and similar. In addition, I find the assertion that police cannot enter onto private property absurd–how else are they going to break up noisy parties, deal with barking dogs, or do the other things they do on the American TV show, “Cops”?