I’m an atheist, and was raised as a protestant Christian. I don’t recall anyone ever saying Catholics were not Christians. They were just different Christians.
One of my guilty pleasures is to peruse the Yahoo! Answers section on religion, where I often see people claim Catholics are not Christians. I figure this is a form of “no true Scotsman”, but I’d like to hear more.
I’m asking here because I’ll get more intelligent answers than on Yahoo! Answers. But I might ask there too for laughs.
I doubt that there are many believers of that position still posting on the SDMB. (Back in the AOL days, we had quite a little nest of them.)
I have encountered many Protestants or Evangelicals who deny that Catholics are Christians, but “many,” in this case, indicates numbers in the very low hundreds, not “many” indicating thousands or tens of thousands or more.
I once had a student (at a Community College) who told me, in an essay, that he did not believe in God because he was not a Christian but a Catholic. Christians, he told me, believe in God, but Catholics do not, they believe in Jesus.
A lot of Christians (including Catholics), and perhaps especially the most fervent ones, seem to have only the haziest of ideas as to what Christianity actually is.
I’m an atheist who was raised Christian, and I’ve known any number of persons who make that assertion. They tend to fall into three categories:
Some fix on the Catholic veneration of statues and the Virgin Mary and call Catholicsm idolatrous, and thus un-Christian.
Some feel that only persons who belong to their particular denomination are Christian and all others are “deceived by the enemy.” This happens a lot among literalist Pentecostal types, who extend it to ridiculous levels at times. They are, of course, fuckless nitwits.
Some black persons of my acquaintance claim that no “white” person can be a Christian, and identify Catholicsm as a “white denomination.” These follks are also fuckless nitwits.
First, what other denominations have been called “white” and therefore not Christian?
It has been said that Sunday morning is the most segregated time of the week in America. This is due to separate churches within a denomination by race. The pattern still exists to a certain extent.
But AFAIK Catholics have never gone in for separate parishes. So, WTF?!
Oh, Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterians, you name it. The fuckless nitwittery is the important part. I imagine there are white supremacists who’d say the no majority-black church can be truly Xtian, but obviously those guys don’t talk to me.
My gf is Catholic but she does not identify as Christian. I’ve asked her for the what differentiates her as a Catholic from a Christian but she hasn’t given me an answer yet.
In addition to the “idolatry” etc I know a few evangelical Christians who argue that Catholicism errs by promoting salvation through works rather than salvation through faith alone.
There’s also an objection to the Catholic rejection of total scriptural authority in favour of a greater weight placed on tradition, the writings of the church fathers, and the authority of the Church as a whole.
Having said that I know as many Catholics who would view evangelical christians in the same light - i.e. not “true” Christians.
I’m sure the persons I am thinking of would object to that too, if they were smart enough to connect the dots.
Do you mean laypeopole, or are you also including persons part of one reliigious order or another?
Most of the Catholics I know well are priests, nuns, or Christian Brothers (i.e., monks), and I’ve never heard that; but for obvious reasons they may not be respresentiatve of what the average parishioner knows or believes.
I think there’s a lot of confusion about Catholicism from a protestant perspective, particularly regarding things like the veneration of Mary, praying to saints, and confessions. I think many of those beliefs are difficult to justify from scripture, particularly from the perspective of a non-Catholic, which causes a some non-Catholics to view those practices as non-Christian and, thus, Catholics as non-Christian. Christianity encompasses a lot of varying views, but they all share some very basic beliefs about Christ and salvation which, Catholicism seems to hold to.
Yes, some might see some of those practices as pagan rites or idolatry, but to judge them as non-Christians for such things would condemn a lot of non-Catholics as well for various other inclusions of pagan ritual. And, as we’re commanded not to do so, as we’ll be judged by the same standards by which we judge others, it seems utterly pointless to me.
So, yeah, it seems to be that any Christians who say Catholics aren’t Christians are just engaging in a True Scotsman fallacy. As long as you believe the most basic things, like Jesus was the son of God and he died for our sins, you’re a Christian.
I know Pentecostal Christians who refuse to call themselves “Christian” as well, or who deny that they are practicing a religion. They affect to do so because “religion” means something “man-made,” whereas of course their beliefs and teachings were not merely inspired by God, but actually faxed from Heaven in English.
I would think the use of “Christ” in the word “Christian” would be enough to classify Catholics and Protestants as Christian. Both venerate Jesus Christ above that of a mere mortal. So does the degree of veneration make a difference?
I was raised a Baptist and I can tell you the rationales some, mostly Evangelical Protestants, have for considering Catholics “not real Christians”. (though most I knew and know don’t hold that view, it was quite common and I’m familiar with it)
They “worship idols” (have lots of statuary and other representations of God/Jesus/Saints which they “bow down to” and pray to.)
They baptize infants…most Evang. Protestant demoninations believe that baptism can only be done for those who are past the “age of accountablility” so they can accept it or not.
They have a Pope, who is considered “infallable” and this is likened to idolotry. As is the authority granted to Priests to absolve sin.
They believe in purgatory and different levels of and durations of Hell as opposed to one Hell, for all eternity.
They consider salvation to be based on behavior (sins) as opposed to pure faith/acceptance of Jesus as saviour. Any Evangelical worth their salt would say that if Hitler had accepted Jesus in the second before death, he’d go straight to Heaven. To suggest that he might be held accountable for his prior actions in any way (say, 1,000 yrs of purgatory and penance) is considered a false doctrine (oh, and Ghandi is in Hell, regardless of his actions, because he wasn’t “born again”)
They use texts other than the Holy Bible and consider them sacred/the “word of God” as well.
I may be forgetting something, but these are the reasons I’m familiar with. Oh, and there is something about the Holy See being considered one of the “beasts” written of in Revelation. :rolleyes:
I think this tends to be true in countries that got a lot of missionary attention in the late 19th and 20th centuries. Since most of the world had been exposed to some form of Christianity by then, a major focus of protestant missionaries was trying to convert people who had been converted to Catholicism centuries earlier. Claiming that Catholics were sneaky pseudo-Christians was a lot easier than trying to explain the somewhat subtle theological differences to someone who probably didn’t have that great a handle on Catholic teachings in the first place.
One side of my family had a lot of these missionaries in it and it’s really interesting reading some of their letters and journals how virulently anti-Catholic they were “professionally” but how they didn’t seem to have much of a problem with Catholics living in the US (such as the other side of the family).