Any Doctors? My mom is bleeding internally - what COULD it be?

I know, no official medical advice can be given. She’s in an Urgent Care center right now, getting treated and taken care of.

This info is for me.

The doctors haven’t said anything official yet, so I’m needing a little more info if anyone can help.

She’s almost 60, takes coumadin normally, and she’s in Urgent Care now because she’s been bleeding internally for over a week, and her blood is “dangerously thin.” She went in this morning.

She stopped taking the coumadin on doctor’s advice when all this started (a week ago), but they didn’t seem to be worried about the internal bleeding til now, and that SEEMS to be because it isn’t stopping, rather than because it’s happening at all, if that makes any sense.

So… medical people: Is this likely to be terribly serious and immediate (as in, I should start driving now), or can I go visit her on Sunday like I was originally planning to do?

And yes, I know, there’s no guarantees, I just wonder - what would YOU do if you heard that limited info about your own mom?

I’m sorry to hear this about your mom, Lasciel. I’m moving the thread from MPSIMS to IMHO, where we put threads of this type.

(I need an embarrassed smiley.)

Sorry I stuck it in the wrong place, thanks for fixing it!

I’m not a doctor, but what condition has your mom been taking coumadin for?

P.S. the embarrassed smiley is the colon, followed by a lower-case “o”

:o

Not a medical type myself, but this sounds like exactly the same thing that my mom went thru back in the early 80’s; in fact, as soon as I read the title, I thought ‘coumadin’.

My mom was in serious condition for a while, she lost a great deal of blood internally. The coumadin had essentially eaten part of her stomach, and then thinned her blood on top of it.

I wish I remembered exactly what they did for her; I know she was in the hospital for about a week, and in the end she was fine, just couldn’t use coumadin & had to be careful about aspirin.

Best of luck to you and your mom!

(thanks - I always see that one and think it’s “pretending to be innocent” - it looks like there should be a halo above it!)

She takes it to thin her blood - I don’t know if there is a specific condition behind it. All the women (grandmother, great aunt, aunt, and my mother) on that side of the family started taking coumadin in their 40s to thin their blood.

I’m sorry I have nothing to add, but I have an ignorant question: how does one know if one is bleeding internally? I mean … you don’t see blood coming out anywhere externally, so what DO you see? Bruising under the skin? How did she know that it had started, and that it hadn’t stopped?

Sorry if this is an intrusive question, and all the best to your mom.

Oh, yuck. That sounds pretty unpleasant. I’m glad she came through it fine!

Thanks for the good wishes - I am really not too worried at the moment, but I’m trying to figure out if I should be. :confused:

There was/is? blood in her urine and feces, and she was starting to bruise at her joints, she bled when she brushed her teeth, and she had a big bloody patch in her eye a few mornings ago, where the white of her eye turned all red on one side (don’t remember the medical term for that).

It was passing the blood that made her worried, but the bit about her eyes was really squicky to hear her describe. I think I’d freak out if my eyeball suddenly went all bloody.

Apparently it’s decently common, and it heals normally without help, just like a bruise does. Still. freaky.

The bleeding on the surface of the eye is a subconjunctival hemorrhage.

I thought the chance of a bleeding disorder with Coumadin wasn’t typically until much older - is your mom good at getting her blood tests done to check her INR level? Does she avoid vitamin K?

IANAD/N; I do work in ophthalmology and my father-in-law has been on Coumadin for atrial fibrillation for decades.

When taking coumadin, the blood clotting time needs to be tested at least monthly to make sure it doesn’t get too high. Has she been getting tested?

Not a doctor, not a nurse, but a nursing student (about to graduate, but still, just a student) so take this for what it’s worth…

Coumadin is what people call a “blood thinner”. What it does is block the action of Vitamin K, which is one of the things your body needs to make blood clots. Most of us don’t need it because we want our blood to clot when we get a cut, but for some people, the body makes clots too much, or it makes them inside the blood vessels, not just when we get a cut. These clots inside the blood vessels can move along the body’s vessels with the liquid blood, and when they get to a teeny tiny vessel, they can block it. This means that little or no liquid blood can get around it, and whatever organs are further downstream don’t get enough blood, nutrients, oxygen and cell waste takeaway. So if a person has a type of condition where that’s likely to happen, their doctor will put them on coumadin so that they don’t clot so easily.

The effects of coumadin can and should be measured frequently (generally every 4-6 weeks) with a blood test, to make sure it’s at the right level and to adjust the dose, if it needs it. This test used to be called a “PT”. You’d get all kinds of different numbers depending on what procedure was used to test it. They normalized the tests using something called an “International Normalizing Ratio”, so now it’s more commonly called a “PT/INR”, or just an “INR” for short. If her doctor talks about her “INR level”, he’s talking about the results from the test which shows how quickly her blood clots. Usually it’s good between 2 and 3 for a patient on coumadin, meaning it takes 2 or 3 times as long for their blood to clot as yours or mine does. Ask the doctor what *her *INR should be, because it’s not always the same goal for each patient.

So if she’s on coumadin, she’s going to have a tendancy to bleed more and longer. That’s normal for her. What’s not normal is bleeding internally, and that’s why they’re worried. Their hope was that if her INR was too high and they lowered her coumadin dose, her body would start clotting more normally again and whatever’s bleeding inside would stop.

So now they’re probably trying to help her in ways other than just lowering her coumadin. They may be giving her extra Vitamin K - remember coumadin works by blocking the action of Vitamin K, so if they give her more of it, the coumadin still in her system can’t block it all. But it takes a while for coumadin to wear off and Vitamin K to kick in, so while this is an important treatment, it can also be slow.

They may also decide to give her some plasma - the watery part of the blood that someone donated - or some platelets - one of the parts of the blood that does the clotting. If she’s lost a lot of blood, they may also give her some red blood cells so her body has enough to carry oxygen around until it can make of her own. There’s a possibility they may give her Whole Blood, which is plasma, platelets and red blood cells all together, but most doctors prefer to give the blood parts, instead of whole blood. It gives them more control to tweak exactly what they need to.

Of course, the most important thing is for them to find out where she’s bleeding and why. The most common place for coumadin patients to bleed internally is somewhere in the gastrointestinal (GI) tract. Could be her esophagus, her stomach or her intestines. They may order some tests to look at these places for bleeding. Problem is, some of these tests themselves, like a colonoscopy, themselves increase the risk of bleeding. So they can’t do them until she’s able to clot better. That’s why the wait, most likely. If the Vitamin K, blood products and, most importantly, time and her body’s own healing, improve her INR a bit, then they can do the tests.

She could also be bleeding in her liver, her kidneys or just “we dunno”, but those are less likely than her GI tract. ETA: And reading your further replies, it sounds like she’s got a generalized problem with clotting in lots of little places, not one huge bleed somewhere specific.

As for how urgent this is, I’m afraid I can’t tell you. Sometimes this is a big deal and sometimes it isn’t. But if she allows her nurse to tell you about her medical condition (her choice), then you can ask the nurse over the phone. Don’t be afraid to be blunt, “Should I start driving now, or wait until Sunday?” is a perfectly acceptable question, and one that they’ve heard before.

I hope this helps a bit. Hang in there, and don’t be afraid to ask lots of questions. Nurses and doctors tend to hang back a bit with the information, because honestly, most people don’t want to know a lot of detail, or they’re so panicked they can’t process the information. And then patients and families get frustrated because no one is telling them anything! But if you ask, they know you’re ready to hear it, and they’ll answer your questions as best they can.

Updates and thanks for everyone with answers!

Heard from my brother (who’s been with her the whole day) and she’s fine.

(Well, not fine, but they figured out what’s going on and are releasing her back home.)

She’s more sensitive to the coumadin than she should be. They don’t know why yet, but she’s off of it for now until they figure out what happened.

They did find out that the main bleeding is from her stomach lining, the rest of it is just having weak blood vessels (my whole family has abysmally low blood pressure) which couldn’t really handle the thin blood and just started springing little leaks all over.

She’s been given platelets and V-K doses to thicken up her blood, and unless something awful happens at home, she should slowly recover.

So, to answer my original question - we’re going to see her on Sunday!

Very good news, Lasciel! I’m glad it’s not more serious. :slight_smile:

Oh, and by the way - “avoiding” Vitamin K isn’t the key, it’s eating a *consistent *amount of Vitamin K so they can figure out the right level of coumadin for that patient, with that diet. So she shouldn’t be binging on spinach one week and eating none the next, but she can still have foods with Vitamin K, as long as she’s fairly consistent about it.

List of foods high in Vitamin K, for reference.

Me too!

Also, thanks to you specifically for all of the information - it made a lot of sense, and was very helpful when I got the update from my brother to know the basics of what was going on.

I think I’m a little on the weird side - I’d always rather know what specifically is going wrong. It makes things much less scary to me when I have something to investigate and be intellectual about, rather than emotional.

Again, thanks to everyone for advice, info, and support!

FWIW, I don’t think that makes you weird. Hell, I got a lot out of reading that post. (Thanks, WhyNot!)

Me, too! I suspect Dopers tend to skew that way, which means I need to constantly remind myself that many of my patients don’t, and I have to watch out for information overload.

I actually much prefer patient education on a board like this - I figure you’ll read as much as you can process, and the rest of it just goes, “blah blah blah blah blah blah…” and maybe if tomorrow you can process a little more, you can always come back and read it again!

You’re very welcome. :slight_smile:

The major signs of bleeding we are worried about when people are on warfarin:

  1. Seeing black tarry stools when going to the bathroom
  2. Coffee ground like emesis (Vomit, throwup).
  3. A cut or bloody nose that doesn’t stop within 10 minutes.
  4. A bruise that is big, that grows, or is totally unexplained.

Those are the major signs of a bleed that is something you should call your doctor about right away when on warfarin.

WhyNot, slight nitpick, while I loved everything you said, and you explained the role of warfarin very well, I just wanted to mention that I’ve never seen platelets given for coumadin toxicity. As you explained, warfarin works by blocking the production of clotting factors that require Vitamin-K, so it doesn’t affect the platelets directly (unlike drugs such as Aspirin and Plavix), so a persons platelets are fine on warfarin. Normally, if someone comes in with an INR greater then 6, but no bleeding, we’ll give Vit-K, but if comes in with INR >8, or with a bleed, we’ll give Fresh Frozen Plasma (since it has all the clotting factors already in it).

Thank you! If you were near by (and my wife wouldn’t kill me), I could kiss you for this. I’ve heard way too many nurses tell patients they can’t eat this, or that, because they are on warfarin. When I do coumadin teachings, this is the most important thing I stress, consistency. As I explain to patients, if we tell them not to do something, they will just want to do it even more. You like your spinach, or collard greens, or whatever, fine, eat them, just eat them every week. And it is consistency week to week, not day to day.

I’m glad to see they are actually teaching consistency in nursing school now-a-days. This has been one of the biggest misunderstandings I’ve seen in patients who have been on coumadin for a long time.

Disclaimer: I’m a pharmacist student, not quite a pharmacist yet, but will be graduating in 56 days.

Thank you for verifying that I’m not crazy…because I’ve actually asked my teachers about this practice, with the same rationalle that you give, whenever I see an order for platelets with a coumadin overdosed patient. And they don’t know why, either. But yes, it is done, and I don’t know exactly why.

The OP’s mom got some, even: “She’s been given platelets and V-K doses to thicken up her blood, and unless something awful happens at home, she should slowly recover.”

So somehow, some docs have gotten the idea that it’s a good thing. I agree with you that it doesn’t really make sense, but it’s been pretty common in my experience. Weird.

:smiley: Yes, they do teach it, at least at my school. And then they put questions on the test that make it seem like you have to avoid spinach like Kryptonite. sigh I try to learn everything in sets - one set of answers for reality, and one set of answers for test questions. Frustrating, but true.