Any FASCIST sci-fi utopias?

[Guy_Propski]

Aro–“overtones”??? Dude, it was a crime to own ANY printed literature in “Fahrenheit 451.” It was the fireman’s job to burn books. If that isn’t fascism, I don’t know what is.

Somebody (probably the OP), needs to define what they mean by a fascist utopia. I’m sure that, in any dictatorship, there are lots of people that think things are pretty good (probably because they are the oppressors). The reason I brought up “The Iron Dream” is because the main hereos are fascists, and the perfect society they live in is presented as a Good Thing. Of course, those who read it know it’s a story-within-a-story, satirizing fascism (and SF fandom, too).

Interesting point about Niven’s ARM stories. If you read the early Gil the Arm stories (“Death by Ecstacy”, “ARM”), society is portrayed as a paradise policed by the benevolent ARM. By the later stories (e.g., “Madness Has It’s Place”, “Procrustes”), the ARM is seen as an opprossive thoughtpolice, run by people made artificially schozophrenic through drugs.

[Tim_R.Mortiss]

Vonnegut had a short story (in the “Welcome to the Monkey House” collection) about a society where you had to be handicapped to eliminate your advantages over other people. i.e., if you were strong, you needed to wear weights to weigh you down; if you had good eyesight, you had to wear foggy glasses, etc. So everyone was equal and nobody could excel. I think that counts as a fascist approach to creating an egalitarian utopia…TRM

[Olentzero]

Tim - That would be Harrison Bergeron.

[Chronos]

Quoth Sam Stone:

The main features of that society [Starship Troopers] that got it labelled as Fascist are: 1) You must serve society in some way before getting the vote,

Correction: You had to serve in the military before getting the vote. Yes, I know that Heinlein tried to backpedal on that later, but the book makes it abundantly clear: When Juan is listing his choices for service, he lists all of the Navy jobs, then all of the Army jobs, with MI at the bottom of the list. He doesn’t bother listing anything after MI, because after that, it’s all things like “testing spacesuits on Venus”, or similarly suicidal assignments, and it doesn’t matter which job you get.

[flodnak]

*Originally posted by HPL *
**Well, Almost any society can be utopia for those on the top rung. It’s how the people in the middle and the bottom feel that tends to carry more weight. **

But in “Brave New World”, the Gammas and Epsilons were happy. They were designed before birth, and brainwashed throughout childhood, to be happy with who they were and what their adult work would be. And they got plenty of sex and soma, too, if I remember correctly; lots of free time, too.

That book is just creepy as hell.

[Guy_Propski]

Exactly my point, flodnak. Does a society get to be called a utopia just because the majority of the population are happy? There were groups of people happy in Nazi Germany and Mao’s China; would you call them utopias?

[Little_Nemo]

Correction: You had to serve in the military before getting the vote. Yes, I know that Heinlein tried to backpedal on that later, but the book makes it abundantly clear: When Juan is listing his choices for service, he lists all of the Navy jobs, then all of the Army jobs, with MI at the bottom of the list. He doesn’t bother listing anything after MI, because after that, it’s all things like “testing spacesuits on Venus”, or similarly suicidal assignments, and it doesn’t matter which job you get.

I don’t have a copy of Starship Troopers in front of me, but as I recall, Heinlein made it clear that people volunteered for public service. The government then decided what type of service you were best suited for. In Juan Rico’s case it was the military.

As for the definition of fascism, I’d offer the following; a fascist regime must be totalitarion (ie in control of every signifigant aspect of society), must have an ‘us vs them’ ideology (with group identity in many cases being a condition at birth), and must function with a charismatic leadership (ie “Our Beloved Leader” will tell us what to do).

[Hazel]

I thought the deal in “Starship Troopers” was that, to earn the right to vote, you volunteered to spend two years performing some sort of service that involved difficulty, danger, and disapline. Basically, you had to leave home, live in a barracks, follow orders, and work hard at some task that was at least somewhat dangerous. But it didn’t have to be the miliatary. It could be some sort of construction or clean-up project. (Think of the space station building project in Heinlein’s short story, “Misfit”.) If you couldn’t qualify for any of the military services, or if you were anti-military, you had other choices.

I think the military jobs were higher prestige then the alternatives. I think that if Juan listed only military choices, that was because that was what he wanted. He presumably didn’t bother to list the other choices because, as far as he was concerned, if they wouldn’t accept him for the military, it didn’t matter which “labor battalion” type assignment he got.

Also, I believe the deal was that any legal adult who wanted to earn the vote was entitled to do so. No matter what your age, no matter what your physical condition, if you wanted to serve, they had to find something for you to do. No one could be turned away.

[Little_Nemo]

If you couldn’t qualify for any of the military services, or if you were anti-military, you had other choices.

Again, working from memory, but I’m pretty sure you didn’t get a choice within the service. The whole point was you were submitting yourself to the needs of society. The only choice you had was that you could quit at anytime and walk out entirely. But as long as you were in, you had to accept whatever job was given you.

Also, I believe the deal was that any legal adult who wanted to earn the vote was entitled to do so.

Definitely true. I recall mention was made that if a person who was blind, deaf, and paralyzed wanted to enter the service, they would have to be accepted and a job would be found for them. In Heinlein’s society, volunteering for service was a fundamental right.

[Sam_Stone]

On Starship Troopers:

Okay, this is the way it worked. First of all, it was clear in the book that you just had to do a stint in ‘civil service’. In Juan’s case, the only reason he wasn’t offered civil service jobs was because HE decided to fulfill his obligation by joining the military. I imagine if he wanted to be a government meat inspector he would have volunteered in a totally different place.

Once you decided to join the military, here’s how it worked: You could list your preferences, and they would do their damndest to put you in one of your choices. But there are no charity cases allowed, so you still had to meet all the physical, mental, and psychological requirements for your requested service.

If you didn’t qualify for any of the things you wanted, then they would decide where to put you. HOWEVER, in that military you have the option to quit at any time, other than during combat. ANY time. You could quit before shipping out, quit in basic training, whatever. Lots of people in the book did just that - in fact, Johnny Rico himself came within a whisker of quitting. And remember, during the recruitment process they did everything in their power to STOP you from joining, up to and including horriblly disfigured casualties at the front desk to scare you away.

Also, no one could be refused service. This was important to prevent the military from becoming a closed society antithetical to the civilian population. ANYONE could serve. The catch was that if you weren’t qualified for anything but insisted on serving, then they’d find something you could be even marginally useful for you to do. And if that included being an ice inspector on Pluto, then tough noogies for you. Of course, you could always quit, but if you insisted on serviing, you went where they told you.

And if you did quit the service, you never, ever got a chance to sign up again. Service is supposed to entail some sacrifice, so it was not supposed to be a country club where you could come and go at will. Leave before your time is up, and you’ve proven yourself to be a little to selfish to be trusted with the vote. Sorry.

The idea here is that they wanted to make sure that every single person in the military was there because it’s exactly where he wanted to be at that time. Heinlein himself was virulently opposed to conscripton - he thought the draft was a form of slavery (which it was).

The whole purpose of this structure in his society was to make sure that the people who voted were the kind of people who were likely to take their responsibility seriously. As he saw it, one of the main flaws of unlimited democracy was that once the people realize they can vote their own bread and circuses you’re in big trouble. Starship Troopers was a thought experiment on how you could set up a limited democracy while retaining a ‘do what’s right for society’ focus among the voters.

It had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Fascism, which Heinlein believed was a truly evil philosophy.

[Hazel]

But, Nemo, I seem to remember deserters being punished. Once you signed up, you were evidently obligated to serve your full term. They did say, I think, that deserters were not searched for. When, however, guilt-ridden deserters decided to turn themselves in, they faced harsh punishment.

Re Star Trek, it is hard to figure out how the society worked, but it never sounded fascistic to me. Maybe kinda socialist? In DS9, I think it was stated that the Federation did not have money. I don’t know how their economy was supposed to operate.

[Pushkin]

*Originally posted by yojimboguy *
To be fair to Star Trek (which I consider hopelessly juvenile), the Federation (of Planets) is more like the UN than a domestic government. Citizens don’t elect UN representatives either. I can’t recall ANYTHING about what qualifes a planet for Federation merbership. How tolerant are they of “religious planets” of “racially pure planets” or whatever?

IIRC there wasn’t any sort of full explanation of the politics of Trek but I think the idea was to have individual planets/empires/systems electing how to govern themselves while being part of the UFP was just a way for planets to get together on more general concerns. Trek for the most part showed how Starfleet operated. Starfleet was the scientific/military spaceborne organisation within the UFP and the crew of the USS Enterprise military personnel.

[Miller]

Hazel: There was a scene in ST where one of the grunts just walked off of base without officially quitting. Later, he raped and/or killed a woman. Since he had never actually resigned, he was still a part of the military and it was their responsibilty to punish him. I think, had he not committed additional crimes, that they would never have gone after him for just going AWOL.

[vivalostwages]

*Originally posted by Arken *
**The evil ultra-Christian Bob Enyart wrote a science fiction story about what would happen if his sort of people took over.

It is one of the most disturbing things I’ve ever had the displeasure to read. Feminists and abortion doctors get lined up and shot, people are forced to pray, etc. All of this, in Enyart’s mind, is a great thing and the story is supposed to be positive. **

---

:eek: I found the link…and that thing was even more horrendous than I thought it would be. Crappy writing, too–though that’s a minor point alongside the content.

[Chronos]

Quoth Sam Stone:

First of all, it was clear in the book that you just had to do a stint in ‘civil service’.

A lot of folks say this, but it’s not at all clear from the book. Can you find me even one passage from the book supporting a person gaining the vote by some means other than military service? Yes, I know that Heinlein later claimed that there were other options, but that’s not in the book.

Of course, this still doesn’t make the society fascist, since as others point out, nobody was obliged to serve, and you could quit (formally or informally) at (almost) any time. They actually establish in the book what the punishment for AWOL in peacetime is: Dishonorable discharge, and nothing else.

Definitely a right-wing society, but not facist (and not particularly a utopia, either, for that matter).

[Boyo_Jim]

*Originally posted by Miller *
**Hazel: There was a scene in ST where one of the grunts just walked off of base without officially quitting. Later, he raped and/or killed a woman. Since he had never actually resigned, he was still a part of the military and it was their responsibilty to punish him. I think, had he not committed additional crimes, that they would never have gone after him for just going AWOL. **

In fact, there’s something specific said about the MI never searching for deserters, peacetime ones at least. The guy they hung was turned over to them only because he was still on their roster.

I don’t recall whether anything was said about deserting under fire. I imagine they’d just shoot you on the spot.

[caffeine_overdose]

This is OT but STARSHIP TROOPERS is a great novel that I assume you have all read. I’ve gone through four copies because whenever I lend it out it doesn’t get returned

Chronos-When Rico is enlisting in chapter two the sergeant tells him.
“But a private soldier today is a specialist so highly skilled he would rate ‘master’ in any othertrade; we can’t afford the stupid ones…we’ve had to think up a whole list of dirty nasty dangerous jobs…”
So if your dumb enough you can get away with manual labor

Neidhart-The Turner Diaries end in nuclear war, not utopia, with the narrator going off to kill himself in some homicide-bombing. I remember the book clearly becasue I felt so dirty after reading it.

[MEBuckner]

Regarding desertion and resignation in Starship Troopers:

He deserted, only two days after we arrived at Currie. Ridiculous, of course, but nothing about the case made sense–why didn’t he resign? Desertion, naturally, is one of the “thirty-one crash landings” but the Army doesn’t invoke the death penalty for it unless there are special circumstances, such as “in the face of the enemy” or something else that turns it from a highly informal way of resigning into something that can’t be ignored.

The Army makes no effort to find deserters and bring them back. This makes the hardest kind of sense. We’re all volunteers; we’re M.I. because we want to be, we’re proud to be M.I. and the M.I. is proud of us. If a man doesn’t feel that way about it, from his callused feet to his hairy ears, I don’t want him on my flank when trouble starts. If I buy a piece of it, I want men around me who will pick me up because they’re M.I. and I’m M.I. and my skin means as much to them as their own. I don’t want any ersatz soldiers, dragging their tails and ducking out when the party gets rough. It’s a whole lot safer to have a blank file on your flank than an alleged soldier who is nursing the “conscript” syndrome. So if they run, let 'em run; it’s a waste of time and money to fetch them back.

Of course most of them do come back, though it may take them years–in which case the Army tiredly lets them have their fifty lashes instead of hanging them, and turns them loose. I suppose it must wear on a man’s nerves to be a fugitive when everyone else is either a citizen or a legal resident, even when the police aren’t trying to find him. “The wicked flee when no man pursueth.” The temptation to turn yourself in, take your lumps, and breath easily again must get to be overpowering.

On the other hand:

“I’ve never thought about it,” I said slowly. “I just meant to serve my term.”

He grinned sourly. “Do you see any term enrollees being paid off today? You expect to make it on two years?”

He had a point. As long as the war continued, a “term” didn’t end–at least not for cap troopers. It was mostly a difference in attitude, at least for the present. Those of us on “term” could at least feel like short-timers; we could talk about: “When this flea-bitten war is over.” A career man didn’t say that; he wasn’t going anywhere, short of retirement–or buying it.

On the other hand, neither were we. But if you went “career” and then didn’t finish twenty…well, they could be pretty sticky about your franchise even though they wouldn’t keep a man who didn’t want to stay.

It’s kind of unclear. Evidently, recruits can resign at any point during the training process (presumably even if there’s a war on)–they don’t get to vote, but they won’t be taken out and shot or anything. On the other hand, those serving in the combat branches at least are in “for two years or the duration” if there happens to be a war on. However, the last bit implies that even “career” soldiers can resign (although they might not get the vote, even if they’ve served for 19 years)–even if there’s a war on? I dunno.

[zen101]

I hear a lot of people throwing out Heinlein and Pournelle as either facist or people who wrote about facism in an idealized manner.

guffaw

Heinlein is a founder if the Libertarian party. Among other things he did not even believe in the draft He wrote a pamphlet that encouraged greater participation in government called ** “Take Back Your Government! : A Practical Handbook for the Private Citizen Who Wants Democracy to Work”**

Pournelle is a genuine conservative but far from facist. Of course anyone to the left or to the right always seems like either a communist or a Nazi, but anyone familliar with Jerry’s literary work as well as his technical and social writing can smell some very liberal tendencies on his part.

Both of these fellows fairly closely follow the Libertarian ideal (at least the original ideal): Do what you will to yourself and don’t force me to pay the consequences. Survival is it’s own morality.

And certainly neither of them wrote about utopias. Utopias are without exception very booring places. You show me a book in a genuine utopia and I’ll show you a replacement for sleeping pills.

zen101