Otto was being a little facetious and hyperbolic, I think. I wasn’t kidding about his pit threads which seem to center around “idiots who call him down with T8o”, but the fact remains that Otto would (supposedly) fold the correct proportion the time, thus not losing extra money with crappy hands, while raising with good hands and therefore win more money from a “calling station”.
If I met somebody who always called all the time, I’d easily beat him in 99% of our sessions, but of course not 99% of all hands. If someone called all the time before the flop, but then folded if the flop didn’t hit, the ratios would drop substantially. To maybe like 85% of our sessions, and 75% of our mutual played hands.
Please, if I started Pit threads on every bad beat I’ve taken the first two pages would be nothing but bad beat stories. Anyway, I don’t think I’ve started many bad beat threads in the Pit; only one I can remember off the top of my head was when I took the beat and the guy who shouldn’t have been in the hand to begin with started lecturing me on the game. I’ve added stories to other people’s threads though.
The most important thing to remember, whether you play tight or a little looser, is that after the flop you have seen 70% of your hand. If the flop doesn’t make you a more likely winner just toss 'em.
I gave a :dubious: the first few times I read your post, too, before I understood what you were saying. Sounds like you’re saying that if you were going up against him, you’d play (and raise) just about every single hand you were dealt and expect to win nearly every single time. I think you meant that you’d raise on almost all of your good hands and expect to beat him 99 times out of 100 when he called the raise without having the hand to back it.
I’ve never played limit, so I have no advice in this thread.
If you look at the next sentence after you stopped the quote, it said “This approach is not effective for obvious reasons…”. Obviously I don’t play this way. But you assuming you’ll beat him 99% of the time doesn’t make any sense. That’s all I’m saying.
He’s just engaging in the “psychological warfare” aspect of poker. It’s the secret weapon that can turn a hard-luck loser into a big-pot winner.
Why, once, I was playing a game, I had 4-9 unsuited, and my buddy Steve kept calling and raising all my bets. Finally, on the river, I decided to really psych him out… so I pulled out my .357 and shot him in the leg and said, “Fold if you want to live.” He folded! He never forgave me, though. What a jackass, taking a game so personally!
Once again, thanks for the advice. Since so many of you have replied let me try and summarise and then you can tell me if I’m on track or losing the plot:
[ul]
[li]Only play on an Ax with a high kicker (10 or up), pairs higher than 7s, suited KQ and QJ. Fold the rest.[/li][li]You can be a bit looser if you’re betting last.[/li][li]Don’t chase hands (straights, flushes). Most times you won’t get them.[/li][li]As a newbie don’t bother bluffing.[/li][li]Don’t call too much. If the hands not good enough to raise you shouldn’t be playing it.[/li][li]The flop is most of the hand - if you haven’t got a good hand, fold.[/li][li]Most importantly - play cautious (but carry a gun ;))[/li][/ul]
The good thing is that not only do I now know these tips, I think I also understand why they are good tips, if you see what I mean.
As you know (or will undoubtedly learn), Hold 'Em is a game of subtle variations. There’s no single proper way to play. But thanks to some really great advice in this thread, I’d say your summary is spot on for someone learning the ropes. And generally good advice for experienced players as well! Just play tight and be flexible when the time is right - the water becomes the teapot, grasshopper (how’s that for mixing the old metaphors?).
Yeah, I realise this. I think, as you say, that all the advice on tight play is good though, especially for me - I would probably have a natural inclination to play quite loosely and hope to be lucky, which is not the way forward.
I can’t wait to play now but will have to wait three weeks. I will report back, however.
In the last three games I have won exactly 0 hands when I had Ax or better to start. Oh wait I won the blinds on AA. :rolleyes: The only hands I won were the ones I stayed in with mediocre hole cards. Go figure. I did pretty well anyway.
I’ve been playing a bit online with play money and doing okay (breaking even). It’s not ideal - a lot of weird play goes on - but two points occurred to me:
I pretty much know the answer to this but would like your thoughts. Presumably I just have to ignore the times when I fold before the flop and then it turns out well - ie. I fold a pair of 3s and the flop is 33x. I find this most annoying but guess I just have to keep a straight face and carry on playing the same.
Secondly by keeping to the above rules I notice I fold a lot before the flop. Roughly 7-9 times out of 10. Whilst I see the sense of this I’m worried that in my real game this is going to annoy the other players (there might only be three of them). In a low stakes ‘friendly’ game is there any etiquette about this?
The flop only improves your hand about 30% of the time but they are easier to remember and your memory makes it seem a regular event. You only had about 1 chance in 800 of flopping the quads.
Playing only solid hands with only 3 opponents may annoy them. Even in real money games though you can play much weaker hands short handed than you can with a full table. Any suited connectors, any pairs (even dueces), even any 20 if you like (QT, AT, JT etc), just pay attention to what your opponents do and keep in mind your slim chances of improving after the flop.
Try getting in some short handed play money games and try playing looser there and see how it goes.
How many players would be in a full handed (if that is the term) game?
Is there anywhere an analysis of what two cards to play and what to fold for differnt numbers of people at the table?
The online site I play has 10 to a table. The live tourneys I play seat 8 to a table, basically because of the size of the table. 8-11 is pretty safe to consider a “full” table.
There are lots but they focus more on position than number of players. Here’s one site that lists a couple of different starting hand rankings. What hands you play when will change depending on your opponents, your position at the table, etc. There are no hard and fast rules, but in general the stronger your hand the more able you are to bet in early position (the first few seats after the dealer button) and you can often get away with playing weaker hands when you’re in later position (closer to the button). You also can loosen up your starting requirements when you’re up against fewer opponents. Then there are whole schools of thought on position raises, raising from the small or big blinds, the differences in limit and no-limit betting and so on.
Just a few comments on these. This is good advice, it’s really tight.
If you are in late position, and the blinds haven’t been raised, there’s nothing wrong with limping in with any pair, hoping to hit trips on the flop, or Ax suited or suited connectors, hoping to a hit a flush or straight draw on the flop. Also KT QT JT, hoping to pair up or perhaps hit a straight draw.
“Don’t chase hands” is overly broad. If you flop four to the flush, your odds are roughly 40% of hitting your flush on either the turn or river. If you can take another card cheaply, it’s often wise to do it.
A simple rough and dirty way to quickly calculate pot odds is to count your outs, double it then add two. So if you have two hearts in your hand, and flop two more hearts, you know of there are 9 more hearts that can save you. (9X2)+2=20% of next card being a heart.
If there is $100 in the pot, and somebody bets $20, you have “pot odds” to call the bet.
I should also point out that an inside straight draw has only half the chance of an open ended one, and is almost never correct to draw to in no limit.
But an open ended one: 8 outs x 2 + 2 = ~18% chance of hitting on the next card.