A texas hold'em tournament with friends. Tell me how to win!

In My Humble Opinion
1

Every few weeks or so, I get together with a group of friends to play no limit texas hold’em. I’m slightly down, my fiance is a fair bit ahead, and I was hoping some of the more experienced players could give me tips on how to improve my game. I checked some guides on the net, but they seem to be geared towards serious players playing against other serious players. Calculating pot odds, Slansky hands, and position plays? I’m pretty sure none of us are thinking at that level.

In an honest assessment of my poker skills I’d say I’m in the bottom 10% and our group is maybe in the bottom 40%. :stuck_out_tongue: I’m not looking to go pro or learn complicated mathematical formulas, and the stakes aren’t very high (we each chip in $5 for a “tournament”). But as a matter of pride I would like to start winning a bit more. So any cheap and nasty tips that can be implemented by a newbie against newbies?

2

It’s likely that if you aren’t among serious players, and if this is all for fun with a little money thrown in to make it interesting, it’s likely that you are all a bunch of calling stations. What I mean is that you will generally play about 85% of your hands and pretty much call 85% of every bet, almost regardless of what you have just because you like the action and you think you can make something in the end. This is your first and largest area of potential improvement.

Switch this around. Start folding about 85% of your hands pre-flop (unless you are on the big blind), and unless you have top pair with a good kicker or better fold to most any reasonably large bet. The pros only see a small fraction of flops.

If you were among a group of better players (I’m making assumptions, I know), I’d also advise that once you felt you had playable cards, you need to be aggressive, but calling stations make it impossible to pry them off a pot and a group of calling stations can be a nightmare for someone who likes to bluff.

Just play very tight, conservative poker and even get into the habit of throwing away pocket pairs and suited connectors if there is a great deal of action in the hand. Remember: position is everything. I’d be apt to toss anything but pocket tens or better out of position in a room full of calling stations, though I admit that feel accounts for something and an hour into playing with your group, I’d likely have some reliable reads on them.

Start paying attention to your opponent’s betting patterns and make mental notes as to the outcome of their cards. With every hand you gain more and more intelligence on what they are likely to play and how they play it. Forget trying to read their facial expressions or watching nervous ticks. It’s nowhere near as reliable as watching how they bet.

3

Last game (yesterday) I was folding maybe 70-80% of my hands - I remember laying down stuff like A4 that I would have one played. But my stack kept getting eroded. We have a couple of aggressive betters and more often than not they get a decent chip lead at the start and start pushing everyone around - what can I do to counter that?

You’re right about most of us playing any cards. It makes me keep second-guessing my hand because say I have JJ and the flop is 44Q - even though I’ve bet aggressively pre-flop it seems like someone always has a 47 that they’ve held on to just in case.

I’ve occasionally toyed with the idea of going all-in on the first hand (assuming everyone is just calling) to try and steal the first pot. Do you think that would work or is it crazy stupid?

4

If you’re playing conservatively, you need to make the most of the hand you do have. Try to not be too obvious about having a hand too. Throwing away everything, and then better large every time you’ve got anything is going to make sure the rest of the group folds and you win next to nothing.

It’s possible that your blinds are too high too. I think that’s likely with a bunch of inexperienced players. If blinds are a large part of your initial stack, playing conservatively and then not catching anything can be pretty frustrating.

5

Hoist them by their own petard. Wait until you’re pretty sure you’re ahead of them on a hand, and let them push you around a little. Then push back, hard.

Of course, you want to be one of those aggressive players, but only when you have the goods.

Welcome to small-stakes poker. Just remind yourself that it’s a good thing when the person who calls preflop with 4-7 has a bunch of money sitting in front of him. (Sucks that some of it used to be yours, but oh well.)

Crazy stupid if you don’t have anything. If you have a premium hand it might not be a bad move, since other people might assume you’re trying to make an early steal and call you with something worse. But it would have to be just the right situation, with a truly top-notch hand.

6

There are 4 basic styles of playing, divided into 2 categories. The first is tight or loose. This just means whether you play a lot of hands (loose) or few (tight). Generally, good players see about 15-20% of the flops. There are certain situations where I will buy into a flop with a so-so hand though, such as when I have a big stack and I’m playing against someone with a considerably smaller stack, or I’m on the button and no one has raised.

The other is either a passive or an aggressive betting style. If you are passive, you will mostly call/fold and rarely raise/bet. If you are aggressive, you are more prone to raise/bet.

Sounds like you were playing tight-passive. IMO, the toughest opponent is one who is tight-aggressive. You can never win if all you do is call, just lose less rapidly.

7

What is your chip stack and blind schedule? It’s possible that you are playing either on too aggressive a schedule or that you are all short stacked for the blind schedule you are running.

If you have JJ, you are right to bet aggressively pre-flop, as this should get rid of some of the players in the hand and allow you to continue to play with that hand without everyone drawing at the pot. If the flop comes 44Q and someone bets into you, then not only do you have to worry about the 4, but also a Q beats you. You would be right to fold in that situation.

Forget that. If you are playing with calling stations, then you lose several of your options, the main one being that you cannot bluff. This is precisely why pros hate playing against calling stations. It limits the tools that they can use and they have to just play tight and conservative until they get the nuts. Calling stations beat pros in tournaments all the time because they can’t be bluffed and can suck out in the end of a hand or any other number of reasons. You have to limit your play against them. It’s as simple as that. Pro players forget this rule often and end up losing to players that should have been busted out a long time ago.

If you do get a great hand, don’t look to check raise. Go ahead and get some money in there. If they are calling stations, they’ll call you. In fact, I rarely check raise anyone, calling station or not. Always be aggressive once you’ve made up your mind to play the hand.

Do you know why AK is the best possible hand to get pre-flop? Even better than AA? I’m only asking because I know people who have been playing for years and still don’t get it. You see the commentators on TV go nuts when a player gets it. The reason that AK is the best hand to get pre-flop is certainly not because it is a guaranteed win, I bet you have seen AK lose enough already in your limited home play. The reason it is the best hand is because it is the best possible hand to get that you won’t get married to. If you get AK pre-flop and bet strong, and still have players going in with you to the flop, and the flop comes 964, your instinct should be to fold, as you now know that your hand is not a titan. If you had made pocket rockets (AA) pre-flop, you’d still be married to that hand after the flop and you could lose chips all the way to the river.

The reason I told you that is because it applies to the hand example you cited above. If you have JJ in the pocket and the flop is 44Q, and everyone stays in the hand (no one folds) then you have to assume that someone has the 4 or a Q and you have to get ready to divorce yourself from the hand. If you have people betting into you, and you have yet to get a read off of them, You have to toss it. It’s so much harder to do when you have AA, especially among calling stations. Save the trickery for the better players. Those are the ones that it will work on.

Remember, tight aggressive is the way to go, meaning play precious few hands, and when you think you got it, get your money in there. At the end of the day poker is about people first and foremost, and your hand should always come second to that.

Beyond that, I don’t have much to offer considering the level of commitment that you have to the game. I would say again to pay more attention to the betting patterns than to the facial ticks and expressions, as that is where the real tells come in.

Good luck, and let us know how your next night goes.

8

You really should read a book on it. There are so many levels to this game. I would recommend “Harrington on Hold-em”

A4 is not all that great a hand. If you are playing with a bunch of guys who play any ace, chances are they have a better kicker than you.

2 things that are counter-intuitive to starting players.

  • AA in a hand where there are a lot of people seeing the flop aren’t as good as you think. Chances that the flop will help anyone but you increases.

  • There is a tendency when there are a lot of people calling to see the flop to get out with a crappy hand like 45 unsuited. Everyone probably has high cards, so they got you beat right? If they do, the chances of the flop having high cards are low, and you will benefit from the flop.

9

Switch to 5 card stud or 5 card draw for a while just for practice in learning what to draw to and when to fold. And by practice, I mean practice by yourself; deal hands around a table and play each hand the way you would normally play. Record the cards dealt, the cards discarded, and the cards drawn for each hand. Keep careful track of which hands are winners and which are losers. You’ll soon learn what you are doing wrong. If you read a couple of good books on those two games and learn how to play them, you’ll probably learn that the wilder games are easier to beat.

As another suggestion, play at your house and serve lots of drinks to the other players; stay sober yourself and watch the money roll in.

10

You’re playing in the type of game that is the closest poker can get to craps. It’s really really hard to beat people that have nothing to lose. Sure, you can come out on top, but don’t think it’s going to be an easy, even process. You’ll still lose a lot in a row before you win a few in a row. The only effective strategies that work against friends that’ll play anything is to play tight and aggressive. In a 4-player game, you might only win 35% of the time. It’s still higher than the 25% you’d need for even money, but it can still be frustrating.

The other posters are right that you shouldn’t look for facial ticks, but don’t throw tells out the window altogether! Focus on two things: 1) The person that shoves his chips into the middle and says “RAISE!” in a loud voice is bluffing. The opposite is true. 2) When the flop comes with 2 or 3 suited cards, and people check their hole cards, they have only one of that suit. It’s hard to peek at your hole cards and not notice (and thus remember) that they were suited. The re-peekers are the ones that remember ONE of the suit, and are checking the other one. Both of these tells are obvious and 90% effective.

11

That’s a good move. One thing I like to think to myself is…“What hand am I hoping to flop with this hand?” Any flop other than AA4 or A44 isn’t as strong as it looks.

You will have to better describe what you consider “aggressive.” Are they raising with lousy hands? Over betting good hands? Do they continue being aggressive post-flop? How do they react when they hit their hand? When they don’t?

Basically if you can remember a specific hand that was played, let us know and maybe we could dissect it for you.

A lot depends on if they are willing to lay things down. If they can lay hands down…RE-RAISE (whether you hit or not). Hyper-aggressive is a VERY effective style in lots of cases (I saw some guy take down 5 tournaments in a single day using it. He just pushed with any decent draw. Table was so tight he stole raises all day.) It’s frustrating to play against, but most who play it CORRECTLY will fold if they’ve gotten caught. If your bros won’t lay their hand down regardless of if they hit or not…suggest they play Blackjack if all they want to do is gamble.

Then you got beat. Dig into the wallet and grab re-buy money. Though it’s not much consolation in the short term, in the long run you’ll win much more money than they will.

What, just so you’re “knockout proof?” Interesting idea, but probably unneeded risk.

12

I’ve been playing no limit hold’em on and off with my friends for awhile. It’s been a learning experience every time we play (we’re playing a really friendly home game where mistakes are usually pointed out), and I eventually picked up a list of “smart things to do” from our poker tutor friend.

Oh, do note that our home game usually plays much tighter than you seemingly described, so the strategy might work out differently for you.

#1 - Watch your tells! Yes, it’s a home game and all, but your projected lack of confidence might allow others to become more aggressive than they really should be, especially against you.
#2 - In most situations, calling is usually a bad idea. If you check, you’re trying to make it to the next card for as cheap as possible …at least that’s what you want others to think. Otherwise, you should raise since if you stay in, you should trust that you have a winning hand… at least that’s what you want others to think.
#3 - The exception to rule #2 is if you’re on a draw, then try to pay as little as possible to see the next card until you made your hand.
#4 - Have confidence in your hand, if you know you have the goods. Once you have the nuts (or you believe you do against the other players), follow through, don’t bail out just because the others are calling / raising you.

Knowing some basic card odds can really help. If you’re like me, I recommend sitting through a few episodes of World Poker Tour and try to remember the percentages… it’s heck a lot more entertaining than chewing through poker strategy books, but that’s just me.

There’s other basic concepts like pot odds and some basic hand strategies, but I usually just go by the hard and fast rules and follow my heart. Tends to work out well… half the time. Or you can just be my friend’s girlfriend, who plays half of her hands randomly - she just rolls a dice in her head for half of her hands and then she’d hit you with AA or AK when you think you got her all figured out. Drives all my card counting friends nuts.

13

If everybody in your game will call almost any preflop raise with any two cards, don’t bother raising, but stay in for cheap with any two cards. If you catch a flop, be VERY aggressive, if not, fold. It’s tough to play with aggressive idiots.
Full Tilt Poker has six-handed mini-tournaments, you could play some of those for practice.

14

Kayeby, could you post the answers to these questions? They have a huge impact on how one should approach a given tournament. Given that all your opponents are newbies, this information should be enough for us to provide a general approach that should up your winning percentage a good bit. Without this information, though, there’s no right answer.

  • How many players are there?
  • How many chips do you start with?
  • What is the time interval between blind increases?
  • What are the blinds at each level?
  • What’s the payout structure?

Some rules of thumb until you get a chance to reply:

  • If your chip stack is more than 30x the big blind, play tight aggressive (*) poker.
  • If your chip stack is between 15x and 30x the big blind, stay tight-ish, but you’ll need to raise to steal the blinds when you get position no matter what you hold (unless someone has raised in front of you, then it’s not automatic.) On the button or one off the button would be a good time. Also, avoid drawing hands like T9s. You don’t have a big enough stack to catch enough of these draws to make them worth it.
  • If your chip stack is below 15x the big blind, you’re in hot water. If you have anything near or above average (and note that Q7o is average), you should go all-in in middle or late position if no one has raised.
  • If your chip stack is below 10x the big blind, you must go all-in preflop before the blinds get back to you. If you find yourself here, it may be because you didn’t do the previous “15x” rule, although it happens.

If you’re just getting blinded out of these tournaments, you aren’t widening your preflop hand selection enough when you get short stacked. Stick to the above rules for a tourney or two and see how it goes. Note that these rules require you to keep track of your stack relative to the BB. Also, if you are going to steal blinds with an all-in, note that it’ll be easier to steal blinds from folks with middle-sized stacks – big stacks will call you to knock you out; little stacks will call you cuz they’ve got nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Also, say you’ve got 20x chips but the blinds are going to double in 3 minutes. You should really think of yourself as having 10x chips now, even though the blinds haven’t gone up just yet.

So, in summary: your play must adjust dynamically throughout the tournament. If you answer the above questions, I’ll be happy to provide a customized, simplified recipe that should help you out a lot. Also include your usual track of demise (big hand gets crushed, slow bleed of chips, etc.)
footnote (*): tight aggressive: play big hands only, and play them hard (raise preflop, bet out if you hit.) But, if you think you might be beat, don’t be afraid to muck.

15

I question this advice. Your goal in poker is to put more money in when you’re ahead and less when you’re behind. Not raising is counter productive. You should be MORE aggressive with your best hands, not less.

If your hand hits? Check-raise is your friend. :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

16

Thank you for the replies. :slight_smile: The general consensus seems to be that I need to play fewer hands and more aggressively.

How come my instinct should be to fold? Because someone might have 78? My poker instincts must be terrible then because my first thought would be “that’s a crap flop :mad: Oh well, at least there aren’t any face cards.”

The 2 aggressive guys were big chip-leaders so pre-flop they’d raise big to push any callers out of the hand. I don’t know if they played with outright crappy hands but they’d raise with stuff like K9, Q5, 44, which I couldn’t afford to do with a smaller stack. In general they won’t often lay down hands - I’d say these two fold the least out of everyone - and they’ll keep betting until the river. It almost always works on me because I’m easily intimidated. With one of them I’m fairly sure that when he has a strong hand he’ll make enormous bets to try and fatten the pot (because he and the other aggressive guy like to bet into each other), when he is semi-bluffing he’ll make decent bets, and when he’s got nothing he’ll just check to the end. But then sometimes he makes enormous bets because he knows it scares the other opponent, so I don’t know how much help that is.

There’s usually anywhere from 6-9 players. We start with 2000 in chips and the first small/big blind is 25/50. We increase it every time someone gets knocked out to 50/100, 100/200, 200/400. The level of our game is that many of us need to be reminded how much chips are worth and we just kind of think “hmm black chips are a serious bet, although not as scary as a blue chip”. No re-buys, winner takes all. Sometimes if we have 8 or 9 people second place will win a small amount.

17

Keep in mind that we haven’t really been talking about suits in these examples. If there is a straight draw on the table or a flush possibility, you can bet your ass with a flop like that, you are in jeopardy. Plus, they could have a pocket pair and made a set. You need to stop thinking about what your hand can beat (a common mistake) and start worrying about what possible hands beat you.

Well, look at that, you just got yourseolf a handful of reads off your opponents! This bit of information is invaluable to you, and should give you a line into what they are willing to do. You now know what chances you can take and when. I’ll explain in a second.

The truth is, they can’t afford to do it either, as Texas Hold 'em is a game where one hand can break you.

With blinds starting at 25/50 you should all be starting with 10,000 in chips (assuming you are playing tournament style–though I can’t be sure because your blinds are only going up when someone busts out. It sounds like a cash game/tournament hybrid) and the blinds go up from there every 15 to 20 minutes. with 2,000 in chips your blinds should start at 5/10. The blinds are too big for the amount of chips you are playing.

Even a professional sitting at the table with you guys can go broke because poker is a game of luck more than skill over the short run, but the longer the game goes on, the more skill factors in and a pro poker player after a handful of sessions would begin to destroy you every night. If you are going to be good at this game, you are going to have to pay attention to your opponents.

Knowing what you told me about these players, here is how I would play at your table:

  1. Fold any hand pre-flop that I wasn’t on the big blind for, or where I didn’t make a pair of tens or better, or where I didn’t get suited connectors, or I didn’t get two suited cards where one of them was the ace.

  2. If I have top pair with top kicker after the flop you and your buddies are going to see a lot of my chips hit the pot. (unless of course there is 3 to a flush or straight on the board that I don’t have, etc.)

  3. If I get top two pair, then you are just going to have to take all of my money, because I am going to play very aggressive and I will put you all in if you play back at me (unless of course there is 3 to a flush or straight on the board that I don’t have, etc.)

  4. If I got the nuts you will likely never see me check raise. It just gives too much information away about my hand, and it really causes an alert opponent to get scared. Check raising is no friend of yours (if they are already calling stations, why are you worried that you could scare them off the pot?). Calling stations are great in that they feel totally compelled to see every single hand all the way through, and usually the only calling stations that fold, will do so because another calling station is there to see the hand through and they get to see it anyway. If it is just you and a single calling station left in the hand, you’d be amazed at how hard it is for a calling station to not see that last card. It is actually painful for them to fold it. If I have the nuts, I’m going to bet reasonably and then when we get to the end, I’m putting you all in; it’s going to take all of your chips to see that last card.

That’s another thing, see about getting the buy-in moved up to at least ten dollars. That way people are more cautious about their betting. Since there is no re-buys, there is a tactic that you can use that is effective. You can beat up on the person that is short stacked against you. Going all in is not a huge deal to someone that you aren’t actually putting all in (meaning if they lose the hand, they still have chips because they had more chips than you at the start of the hand). But putting someone all in that could lose and then they are done for the night makes a person hesitate and think, which is halfway to folding. If I get top pair with top kicker after the flop against a person who is shorter stacked than I am, and everyone else is out of the hand, I’ll bet big on the flop, and if I’m still looking good on the turn, I’m going to put them all in. That is one of the best ways to get someone to fold a hand after they have put a lot into the pot.

18

Wait, my mistake. I checked with my friend and our blinds actually do start at 5/10. The chips are worth 5, 25, 100 and 500 and I knew we started with the cheapest colour but I forgot what the cheapest colour was worth.

HA! My fiance has done this against me (and others) so many times. Next time I’ll let him know I’m onto him.

19

Better yet, don’t. Don’t let your opponent know that you know. It may cause them to switch up their game on you.

20

Because in a big, multi-way pot, SOMEONE’S going to have a piece of a 964 flop be it T9 65 or 42. And since it sounds like they have a hard time laying hands down, you won’t be able to bet them off it. Only very rarely would I bet at that flop with AK in a multi-way pot.

Not instinctual, it’s just experience. You can’t put ALL FOUR opponents on KQ, KJ, JT and QT in that situation, and since you KNOW someone’s not laying down J9 or even middle pair your AK is no good.

Raising is your friend in these situations then. If your getting cards, push back. If not, make sure you aren’t too far behind and see if you can’t hit the flop and take advantage of their seemingly non-existent post-flop play.

This is one of your problems. Playing against these types of players is very frustrating. You can’t be intimidated. It’s only $5.

This sounds like a perfect strategy for your table.

He bets big when he’s got the goods because he knows he’s getting callers with the loose table. He bets smaller with the semi-bluff because he wants to risk less chips should someone come over the top (re-raise him), and a caller isn’t the worst case scenario for his hand anyway. He could still hit. If his hand sucks he checks unless he senses weakness and that a bet could pick up the pot. You don’t need a hand to win at poker.

Sounds like a decent structure for a $5 tourney with the boys. How long are the blind levels? I like the winner-takes-all structure.