Tournament Poker Strategy

We’ve done a bunch of threads about strategies within hands, but this is a thread about an overall strategy.

I play four free tournaments a week at local pubs. It starts with usually 30-40 people. These people generally don’t take the game seriously. Some of us do, but most are just there to drink and throw chips around while they watch the ball game. They don’t play terribly, mind you, just loose.

At first, I started playing my standard hands, basically any two card higher than 9, and in certain positions, any ace. The blinds start at 25-50 and go up every 15 minutes. If I had a hand, I’d always make it 150. This NEVER GOT a fold from anyone at the table. Everyone looks down at their stack of 4000 and think “150’s not that much” so they’d call. I thought this was a great strategy because they’re putting in worse bets, and I’d consistently finish in the top 15, usually top 10.

But then I realized that I could do a lot better if I loosened up early on. I figure that if I can get into a pot for 50, and I just so happen to hit the flop, I’ll eventually get pot odds to draw to something. It seems true because the subsequent bets post-flop are so large in terms of the big blind (6x or 7x the blind) that it “drowns out” any preflop betting. So for the past three tournaments, I’ve been playing any two cards for the first two levels and only folding to a raise. I lose a lot of hands but the rake-in on the ones where I hit a lucky draw are enough to make me chip leader after only 20 minutes of play.

Once the blinds get high enough that people are only betting 3xBB, I tighten up to only, say, 7% of hands. I grind out chips here and there until we’re at the final table.

Over the past three tournaments, I’ve finished 3rd, 2nd, and 1st (in that order, ironically). Is my strategy sound, or am I fooling myself? Have I just hit a lucky period where I’m winning despite poor early play, or is this a legitimate, mathematical way to get ahead?

Paging Turble.

In the situation you’ve described, I would agree that loosening up is the correct strategy (assuming you can outplay your opponents after the flop, which is a reasonable assumption). I would narrow it down further to loosening even more on multi-way hands, like suited cards, connectors and suited connectors. Pocket pairs aren’t as impressive when you have 6 or 7 people seeing the flop; in that situation you can play JJ or even QQ like a small pair in that if you flop a set you’re golden, but if not, you’re out.

Then again, I was weaned on limit tournaments and you are playing NL, so an entirely different strategy could be at play here.

How are you considering your early play bad? What more can you ask for than having an opponent put their chips in with a worse hand? Sure the odds are not that much in your favor, but you’re very rarely going to ever have that huge of a lead preflop, odds-wise.

Also, isn’t the very basic rule of thumb to play the opposite of how the majority of your opponents are? If they’re all playing loose, you go tight-ish and let your preflop odds eventually work their magic (even if over the course of multiple tournaments) to have you winning more hands than losing, assuming you play correctly postflop.

Your description sounds like valid poker strategy. If there are typically a lot of preflop callers and no preflop raisers, then yes, just about any two cards have potential.

There is a reason why you seldom see limped pre-flop pots on TV, players with good hands want to isolate their hands against one player.

Try amending your strategy to playing any two suited cards, or any two semi-connecting cards.

Hands like 9/6 suited and 10/8 off are more valuable than 10/4 off. Low Non suited/Non connecting cards are seldom good to play, especially in early position. Even if you get a piece of the flop, there is a chance that someone got a bigger piece.

Because that’s not what I’m doing. I used to play that way. I’d wait for a good hand and then win the pot. But now, I am the player putting money in with a worse hand.

Oh, man. There are whole books about this stuff and he wants me to boil it down to a forum post … and I’m not real big on the whole idea of wising up the competition. Oh,well, it is a nice challenge.

The new school world class hyper-LAG (Loose Aggressive) players are playing maybe 35 to 40 percent of their hands – old school TAG (Tight Aggressive) players are playing around 15 percent … so playing 100% of your hands is out. The number one mistake made by poor poker players is playing too many hands, followed closely by going too far with them.

Not wanting to spoil your fun and not wanting to go on for 30 pages, how about something like – tighten up to big pairs (AA – TT) and big suited connectors (AKs - T9s) in early position, medium pairs (99 – 88) and the lower suited connectors (down to 43s) and suited Aces in middle position (forget about offsuit Aces with a low kicker except for trying to steal the blinds in late position), and the rest of the pairs in late position … and IF there is a loose player or two in the pot already (and there is NOT a BIG raise), sometimes consider the suited one gap hands like 86s. That gets you playing a realistic number of hands. Notice that it also means you will be playing very few hands in early position; that’s a good thing. Most of the time, it is a big advantage to act last. By playing few hands up front and more hands late, you will automatically be acting last on most of your hands.

Pot odds are important, but less so in no limit than in limit poker. In NL, you objective is not so much to win the (current) pot as it is to set up situations in which you can win your opponent’s whole stack. In a limit game if the pot odds aren’t there, you can’t call with your draw, but in NL, even if the pot is tiny, if you think you can win the other guy’s whole stack if you hit your inside straight draw, you go for it.

Generally, the best hand before the flop ends up being the best hand after all the cards are out, so playing better hands than your opponents gives you a built in advantage. However, while AA or JJ will frequently win without improving, hands like 76s are rarely the best hand before the flop and they must hit something to become the best hand … so to play hands like that you need to see the flop cheaply because most of the time you are going to miss the flop and will have to fold if there is any action (AK might win a showdown without improving but 76 will not, so big card strength is very important.)

How to play the hands: Generally, if you’re the first one in you should raise (three times the big blind is generally considered a Standard Raise but anywhere from 2.5 to 5 times can be common depending on the game). By raising, you gain some Fold Equity (everybody might fold and you win the blinds), and you often (but not in very loose games) gain position when everybody behind you folds and you get to play in position against the blind, and you tend to gain some control over whatever other players come in to the hand (you raised so you’re supposed to have a good hand so you have somewhat of a Fear Factor over the others.)

If you raise and get reraised by a player behind you, you should probably fold if you have one of your weaker hands (87s or 33 kind of stuff) because a reraiser is telling you “I have a big pair” and you have a weak hand AND you are out of position (you will have to act first on the flop and when you check [because most of the time you will miss the flop] he will bet [because that is what reraisers do … because they are “supposed to” have a big hand] and you will have no idea what he has and you will wish then that you hadn’t called in the first place … so give it up early with a hand that can’t go to the showdown on its own strength.

If you raise and you have AA or KK (or perhaps AK) and you get reraised, your objective now is to get all of your chips in the middle. If you think he will call if you just push all-in, go for it … or if he is a very aggressive type, just re-reraise (about 3 times his bet) and let him push all-in.

If you are on the button, you can call normal raises (but not reraises) very liberally IF the raiser has a big stack (and you do too) because you will have position on the raiser (that doesn’t mean you should play garbage – but you can play your normal hands in a raised pot). If you or the raiser has a small stack you don’t get the implied odds you need to call with small connectors (remember, you have to hit the flop with those hands and most of the time you won’t … so you need to be able to win a lot the time you do … so you need to play against somebody who has a lot of chips you can win.)

Once the blinds get big, things change. When people only have a small number of big blinds left, they tend to play scared. Now is the time to steal blinds by raising relentlessly if you are the first one in … loosen way up to try to steal but give it up quickly if you meet resistance. It’s been said that “You don’t win tournaments, you steal them.”

When the average chip stack only has enough to pay the blinds/antes for 10 or fewer rounds, the game enters the Move-In Stage. At this point, you are either going to fold or go all-in; you don’t have enough chips to fool around … so just push with you’re playable hands and hope everybody just folds and lets you have the blinds … but keep it to your normally playable hands so that when you do get called (they aren’t going to let you just keep pushing and stealing the blinds forever) you have a decent chance to get a little lucky and win the pot.

Now, realize that this is likely so different from the way you have been playing that you are going to get absolutely creamed the first time you try it, and probably the second time, too … but these are some (crude and simplified) steps that will help move you toward playing a better game.

Good luck.

Whoa, whoa whoa. That’s actually exactly how I’ve been playing my whole life. It’s served me well in cash games. But that’s optimal strategy against normal opponents. But we have more information about our opponents than that. We know their tendencies. So that’s got to call for some modification.

Here’s what we know about our players that’s not true of a smart, “computer” player:

  1. In the early game, everyone’s psychologically disinterested. They have a lot of chips and the blinds are incredibly low. So when you say “3 BBs is about right”, that’s not true for this group of people. If I want to protect a hand, it has to be 6 BBs. And someone folding in the small blind instead of limping? Fuhgeddaboudit. Post-flop, you’ll have to bet (and expect to call) 8 BBs to get any respect.

  2. Late in the game, 2 BBs is a scaaaary bet. There’s only 2 players per flop and one is usually the BB. Post flop, you can buy the pot for just one BB.

  3. I’ll never be able to steal the blinds until the final table, no matter how much I put in. I can go all in on the first hand and get two callers.

Here’s a sample hand early:

Preflop: Someone makes it 2 BBs to go and gets 5 (!) callers. Pot = 10 BB.
Flop: Someone bets 8 BBs. 3 players fold, other two call. This round = 24 BB. Total = 34 BB.
Turn: Bet of 10 BB, one caller. Round = 20 BB. Total = 54 BB.
River: Check-check (Silly, right?) Total pot = 54 BB.
Yes, that’s right- a pot of 54 BBs! To see the flop, I would have needed to pay 2BBs. If I hit the flop, I need to pay 18 more for a total of 20. Late in the game, this would never happen. Everyone would fold preflop or on the flop and the best hand would win.

So what I really want to know is, if it’s only 2 BB to get a flop, and I could win a net of 34 BBs ('cause 20 of the 54 is mine), how should I adjust my strategy to deal with this reality? The way I reason it, the flop is practically free. So I effectively have a 5-card hand right off the bat.

Assume perfect pot-odds play after the flop by me, but not necessarily by my opponents. Assume I’ll only chase if the money’s there, and I’ll dump any hand that doesn’t hit the flop. Further assume that I get called all the way down.

So should I play suited connectors? Any suited cards? Any connectors? Any suited, but only mid-connectors? Or is it all just mathematical smoke-and-mirrors and the strategy doesn’t change at all? Is this a common theory that I’m just realizing, or is it just amateur hogwash?

What’s your starting stack. you said blinds are 25-50 but don’t give the starting stack. My guess it is 3K or possibly 4K.

For the first game, it’s 4k and you can top up if you have the league Tshirt or ‘opening night’ chips that brings you to 5k. For the second game, they want to keep you in the bar longer, so they play “deep stack” and you start at 9k.

ETA: You know how I said you can win 54 BBs typically? Tonight, the first hand was 800 BBs and the next two were >400 BBs.

Ok, granting that you are playing a reasonable number of hands and have some sort of a clue about cash game play, then in large part adjusting to tournament play is smoke & mirrors. Speaking purely theoretically, you shouldn’t adjust your play at all – play your best game to give yourself your best theoretical outcome.

Theory runs into a bit of a problem, though, because even though you should not adjust your game just because you are playing in a tournament, the other players do adjust their game … so you have to adjust your game to take advantage of the adjustments they are (incorrectly) making. Don’t think “I’m in a tournament so I should …”, think “He is playing super tight / super loose / scared , etc.” That should help keep your focus where it belongs … on the other players and how they are playing, not on the fact that you are in a tournament.

Once the blinds get really high the game still plays much like a cash game; you just have to play more like you would play a short stack in a cash game but being much more likely to be happy stealing the blinds.

In the tiny buy-in online tournaments, 25 and 50 cent things, a lot of players just choose to sit out the first two or three rounds until most of the maniacs go broke. Some only play the super premium hands, willing to risk elimination with AA or KK for a chance to double or triple up early … depends on how you feel about busting out real early. You can always catch up later because those huge stacks are in the hands of the poor players who were willing to go all-in with rags and got lucky. So gamble it up on those early huge pots if it suits you but you may want to keep in mind the adage “You can’t win a tournament on the first hand but you can lose it.”

Let’s talk a little about bet sizes. Forget about protecting your hand. You are raising to build the pot because you have a good hand or you are limping or calling a small raise (in position) with a hand that might become a good hand by hitting the flop. When the blinds are 25/50, it makes no sense to bet 4000 (unless you are sure someone will call.) Yeah, yeah, I know. In your game, they will call … but maybe not every time. You still shouldn’t be making that mistake; let them make the mistakes.

Bets and raises should correspond to the size of the pot, typical bets are generally around 1/2 the pot, 2/3 of the pot, and about the size of the pot (because they give the opponent incorrect pot odds for drawing to certain hands [much to complex to discuss here]) … occasionally a bit more than the pot … big overbets of significantly more than the size of the pot come into play later, when everybody is on a short stack and it is better to move in than to leave yourself with only a big blind or two.

Notice that if you are the first one in, a raise of 3X the BB is a bet the size of the pot … and if someone has raised 3X the BB, reraising 3X his bet is again a bet the size of the pot. Be sure you get this; it is an important recurring situation – the pros are not betting or raising random amounts. Yes, in a loose game the standard raise might become 4X or 5X the BB, but keep in mind that in that situation, you are not raising to protect your hand, you are raising to build a big pot when you have a good hand. Play small hands in small pots, play big pots with big hands.

To make all this thinking worthwhile, perhaps you and a few friends might consider (if it is legal in your area) making a Last Longer bet. Poker without money (or for piddling amounts) is not much of a game; put $20 or $50 or $100 or whatever might motivate you into a kitty and your game will improve dramatically.

Chessic Sense, if you are not doing anything on Thursday nights at 10 pm et, come and play in theSDMB poker league.

There is normally about 15 of us, its free, but the game is very competitive. Everyone plays as if their pride is on the line. No maniacs (usually) going all-in on the first couple of hands, and the game is quick-paced but the game is rather quick paced.

I think the play of the game mirrors what happens in a brick/mortar poker tournament with a $75 buy-in. Fairly conservative play. But we do have a lot of good nature ribbing on an AOL IM group chat.

If you (or anyone!) want to join us, post to the thread so you get on the radar screen. I started playing 3 months ago and I really enjoy it. You can test out your strategies with some (fairly) knowledgeable players. The game normally takes about 1.5 hours to complete, and the first guy eliminated usually lasts about 20 minutes.

You have nothing to lose, if you don’t like, you have only lost an hour of your time.

here is what i do. if mensa is in the hand i get the heck out because that dude beats me like a red headed stepchild every fracking time.

seriously, though i like to play tight and get the idiots out of the way early on. then when the field narrows and you are only going up agains one or two folks you at least can play the odds better.

i mean shit how many times to have to get k’s and some other clown goes all in with 74o and then flops a boat. that doesn’t happen deep into tournaments. but it does seem to happen more often when some clown is just drinking a beer and watching the game.

so in the nightly freebie games, my strategy is play tight as a drum early on and then get going once the clowns are gone.

and what mensa said. we have a standing game each thursday night. come join us. it typically lasts about an hour and a half. there is a ton of “encouragement” that goes on. although i would strongly suggest that you not let your ten year old read some of the “encouragement”.

To chime in, RedSkeezik has very clear instructions how to join the weekly Thursday game in this thread. It really is a lot of fun, with mostly knowledgeable players who take the tournament at least as seriously as people I played with for money on PartyPoker, back in the day. The blind structure accelerates really fast, even for Sit’N’Go’s. For much of the tournament, you’ve less than 20BB in your stack. If you’re O.K. with that though, then it is a lot of fun. It’s a nice experimental space to try out new strategies, with very little trash talking—what you read above from notfrommensa and peekercpa is about as rough as it gets, certainly nothing like PP, or XboXLive.

Oh, and thanks Turble for the very informative posts on tourney strategy. It gave me quite a lot to think about.

This is about par for the course for the (pay) tournaments I play in regularly.

Indeed in early rounds, people look at the ratio of cost/stack size instead of cost/pot. Five to the flop isn’t unreasonable when you consider the guy made only a 2BB raise. Remember, with each successive call, the pot odds for the the next guy (in even better position) get better. By the time it hit the SB, he was getting 5-to-1. The BB 9-to-1!

Meanwhile the flop bet was a reasonable 80% of the pot, but a scary flop is going to bring callers no matter what (8s 9s Jh is going to bring a TON of hand along). Turn bet was silly, <1/3 of the pot. River going Check-Check is reasonable. Beter probably had a medium strength hand and the second guy was drawing.

My solution is to raise big in the early going. One of the tourneys I play starts out with blinds at 25/25 and I’ll raise AT LEAST to 150 for a decent hand. Loosening up is also acceptable but it was Sklansky (I think) that pointed out, “This DOES NOT give you permission to call with 2-4 suited out of position HOPING others are coming in.” Still play solid position poker. And when you get your hands, don’t be afraid to go hard with them.

You kind of have to toss out normal strategy in a freebie bar game. Because people are playing some silly hands, you’re going to end up with bigger pots than normal. That means you’re going to see bigger stacks than normal.

Finishing in the top 5 in tournaments like that becomes much easier. Winning becomes much harder. Which do you want?

I disagree with this sentiment. You can’t win a tournament without first making the top 5. Yes, you might be the short stack, but there is a good chance you can out play the donkeys.