Any historical navies that could be considered blue water?

The British seemed to have a commanding navy up till at least the war of 1812, perhaps beyond, and would seem to qualify, especially given the time and tech of that day. But do they actually qualify as such? What about ancient China? Japan during WW2? What else may qualify or is this totally off base and nothing of antiquity really could be considered a blue navy? And when the known ‘ocean’ was just the Mediterranean, was there a blue navy equivalent?

The French as well during the ancien régime. They had colonies in North America and the West Indies that needed naval protection from the British.

Britain and the UK have had a blue water Navy since probably the 1730s. It could be argued earlier. They were the most powerful Navy until WWII and the ascendancy of the US Navy.

The Great White Fleet of the US was when we could really be said to have a blue water Navy.

Japan clearly was there from around 1895 through 1945.

France has had one most of the time the UK has. Just not as good generally.

The Dutch had an early period where they qualified. I would say earlier than the British but fading far more until not really having one part way through WWII.

Russia/USSR qualified, even if always inferior and lacking real NCOs.



Italy would qualify currently and has qualified at times as early as WWI.


China, Japan, India and even South Korea are moving towards Blue Water Fleets.

China is probably there. The numbers are staggering even is the quality is not. I’m not sure if they have enough reliable bases to really count or not.

What do you call a blue navy?
Before 14th century no one was operating in high seas with military ships. Vikings were raiders who suffered heavy losses in transatlantic travels, galleys were of little use in high waters and limited observation capacities meant that battle occurred near coasts, towns or significant trade paths.
After 14th century, European navies became more and more involved in transatlantic travels and more professional. But the reco problems were the same: hard to find another fleet in high sea. Battles were coastal still, even if ships could travel between continents with (relative) ease.

At various times, Carthage, Rome, and Venice dominated the Mediterranean.
The Ottoman Empire was a major power in the Mediterranean, the Indian Ocean, and even raided into the Atlantic.

There was a brief period when Ancient China was a naval power, for about three decades. But if you look at a map of where they actually went, it was mainly coastal. The big “blue water” voyage was between Ceylon and the coast of Africa, around present day Somalia. Then the next emperor burned the fleet. I would say, no, they do not qualify.

Blue water means operating long distance and away from shores. The term has evolved since I think Alfred Thayer Mahan coined it. So in the 1700s it required bases to resupply food, water and sources of vitamin C and of course to maintain the ships and ammo.

In the 1800s it came to require coaling stations.

Now it means a combination of complete fleets. Stealthy Subs supporting a Carrier with an escort fleet that can keep up and a string of bases. NATO works together on this making it simpler for NATO nations.

ETA: Never mind.

The Battle of Yilu River where the IJN defeated the inferior Chinese fleet was fought in 1895, and their Standing Fleet was organized in 1889 around three crusers and a few lesser ships. Probably the starting date should be closer to 1889 than 1895.

As a pithy observation, perhaps we could call 1944 as the end of their blue water history, as except for the spectacular failure of Yamato, none of the three surviving carriers or one remaining BB (other than Yamato) ventured out of coastal waters.

Only two light and two heavy cruisers survived the war. The two heavy cruisers were not repairable and kept in Singapore as floating AA platforms. Two other heavy cruisers were used as fast transports and sunk in 1945.

Japan is moving towards rebuilding their blue water capabilities in response to the threat from China.

Sir John Arbuthnot Fisher would like a word concerning your cutoff date.

The British Navy was acting on a global scale at least throughout WWI (as Vice-Admiral von Spee could attest) and arguably up through the opening of WWII.

Most likely right, and why I used ‘until at least’ 1812, which from my US centric viewpoint was the last war of note where we asserted ourselves to stop the practice of the British warships impressment of US citizens, this ending the relevance of the British navy from US school teachings. So from that point on I am fuzzy of British navel history but I know they were badass for quite a long time.

I always understood a “blue water navy” to be in contrast to a “brown water navy”, meaning that the blue water navy was one that operated on the high seas, far from its bases, and with a (potentially) world-wide operating area. A brown water navy on the other hand, is one that is basically tied to coastal defense, and/or limited in scope to basically being near its bases.

I’d say that most of the great powers since the 19th century have had blue water navies, albeit of wildly varying capabilities. Certainly the Royal Navy has been one for a very long time, but so has the French Navy, the US Navy and the Japanese Navy.

I don’t know that there really was; I think the combination of short distances and naval technology meant that everything was relatively close and the idea of operating far from a base for an extended period was unnecessary. I mean, Rome and Carthage were about 3 days sail from each other at galley speeds, so there’s no real concept of having to be able to provision a ship for an extended time frame when it’s a week there and back.

From what I recently googled this would be a green water navy, while a brown water navy would be lakes and rivers and such.

Re: ancient naval warfare. You are probably correct, the navies of antiquity seemed to bases in coastal areas and just went out to other coastal areas.

Clearly any imperial power in the age of exploration had a navy that could sail around the world, but is that a blue water navy? They generally didn’t fight battles very far from shore. Almost all major naval battles you can think of in the Age of Sail happened near land. Trafalgar? Near land. The Armada? Near land. Cape St Vincent? You get the idea. Granted, even in the age of iron and radar most battles are near land but you do have some genuinely blue water battles, like Midway or the hunt for the Bismarck (or really most of the Battle of the Atlantic) because only in modern times could enemies in deep water be reliably detected and pursued.

I was using the definition of “blue water navy” as in “operating globally”.

In any event the fleets at Jutland were fighting 60 miles off the coast of Denmark in waters up to at least 200 feet in depth, which seems pretty deep, at least to a landlubber. :thinking:

Spain and Portugal had warships to go with their empires from late mediaeval times.

Fuzzy British Navels? Still badass:

You know those dudes don’t much care for personal hygiene on a mission. :slight_smile:

Nor do they drink brightly coloured cocktails made of OJ & peach schnapps. Or if they do, they kill any witnesses.

And thjere was the Royal Canadian Navy, which grew tremendously during WWII:

I figure if Rome and Carthage were 3 days sail apart, that is a totally different logistical situation than say… sailing from London to the Indian Ocean and doing whatever needs to be done. Or from France to the West Indies.

Even Gibraltar to Beirut is not that far relatively speaking, and there’s plenty of options for stopping along the way.

I tend to agree, while they could travel to far away places, they were very much dependent on their home base. Like I don’t think they had patrols just sailing around the sea. However once ocean travel and the new world opened up blue water capability seemed to be required to operate a navy anywhere across the ocean.