Any insight to what's going on here? (Insurance question)

In My Humble Opinion
1

One of my motorcycles I own is a 1995 that I bought new. I had the same insurance coverage on it with the same company since purchase. The policy was in effect year-round and the premiums were paid in one lump sum once per year, in July.

Until this year. I found a different company that gave me the same coverage at significant savings. I waited until I was sure the new policy was in effect then I officially canceled the old policy. I received a notice of policy cancellation as well as a certificate of coverage for the dates it was in effect.

A month later (today) I received a bill from the old company claiming I owed $200 for coverage on the bike from (get this) July 2013-July 2014.

:confused: WTF?

So I contacted them and they tell me that on July 13 of 2013 I called them and increased my coverage on this bike. This extra coverage cost an additional $200.

Like hell I did!:mad:

No way would I increase coverage on an 18 year old motorcycle. It already had too much coverage on it as I had never removed the collision on it. And no way would I forget that I did something like this.

So here were my questions to the rep:

*Do you have a signed waiver accepting the increased coverage? Anyone can just call you up and increase coverage, doesn’t mean it’s the owner.

*Why would the increase not have been incorporated into the premium and be a separate charge? My future (post 7/13) premiums did not reflect an increase.

*If I’ve owed this for 3 years why is this the first notice I’ve ever gotten that claims I owe it? I open all correspondences I get, including junk mail. I would not have missed a past due notice. I have not moved anytime during the time you claim I owed this money.

*If I owed money on an insurance premium and didn’t pay it, why wouldn’t you have cancelled my policy?

*If I owed the money for 7/13-7/14 and didn’t pay, why would you allow me to renew 7/14-7/15 and 7/15-7/16?

*Once again I asked if I had owed this money for 3 years why wouldn’t it have gone into collections, and why wouldn’t my policy have been cancelled?
The rep gave me an outstanding answer of “I don’t know”. :rolleyes:

He went through everything on his computer and couldn’t come up with a reason why, if I allegedly owed this money why I was never told, why the policy wasn’t cancelled for non-payment, why it didn’t go into collections, and why 3 years later is the first notice I got. But he could tell my the time and date (though not the incoming phone number) of when I allegedly called and upped my coverage on an old bike I hardly ever ride and is already over insured.

It seems like more than a coincidence that this comes up immediately after I quite doing business with the company.

The rep is going to send me a print out of everything they have about this, including a signed waiver if they can find it (they won’t).

I don’t intend on paying for something I didn’t purchase, but I don’t want it to affect my otherwise excellent credit rating

Anyone have any insight as to what’s possibly going on here? I put this in GQ because there might be a factual answer. But if the Mods disagree and move it que sera sera.

2

Someone else called to up coverage on their policy. The customer service rep entered the request for the wrong policy number.

Absolutely no idea why they would not have hit you up until now. Don’t pay it.

3

Here’s how it works in my jurisdiction, and I can’t imagine it would be significantly different anywhere else.

Coverage changes can indeed be done just over the phone, and there is no “waiver” to be signed that I’m aware of (but that part might be different elsewhere). I know this because I just moved my coverage to an entirely different vehicle with a simple phone call. But the thing that makes it all work is that within days, you get a confirmation in the mail of coverage change and associated premium change. Also every time the policy renews, you get a package listing all your coverages and what you’re paying for them. Everything that happens is confirmed in writing. It must surely be the same where you are.

Even more mysterious is how the alleged increase wasn’t reflected in the premium and nobody noticed!

Tell them that if they have a detailed history and evidence of exactly what happened, they can feel free to send it to you. But if all they’ve got is some doofus on the other end of a phone demanding money and responding to your questions with “I don’t know”, I’d tell them to go pound sand and threaten to file a complaint with your state’s insurance bureau. This sounds both incompetent and unethical.

4

no insight as to what the insurance company is doing - but if you have your coverletters for the renewals - you should be able to see if the policy did, in fact, change from one year to the next.

5

IMHO, there are a few things taht could have happened.

  1. While in the process of closing your account, they noticed some outstanding amounts that had fallen through the cracks.

1a) The reason the outstanding amount fell through the cracks in the first place was because it was an error.

  1. The process of closing an account detaches things from it. If there are any outstanding amounts, they have to be handled by a seperate process. Unfortunately, the seperate process of matching up detached accounts and detached amounts is not perfect.

When you reply (you must reply), tell them that unless the error is corrected, you will be making a complaint. Keep a copy of all corespondance. Decide how important the moeny is to you. If it’s not important, pay them to go away.

6

Not only did I never get a notice of coverage change, in future premium packets there was no mention of it, nor any increase in premium. $200 would have jumped out at me like a flash bang! I always get longevity and good driver discounts. Even with those a coverage increase would not have been negated in price and I would have noticed the increase immediately.

7

You don’t know me very well, do you? :wink:

8

I would just keep at them. Call them every day to get a ‘status update’ on what’s going on because ‘you want to get this taken care of’. Also, I probably wouldn’t bring up collections anymore. I mean, I understand where you’re going with it, but I wouldn’t put that idea in anyone’s head. Maybe just a simple ‘if I had $200 outstanding, why didn’t anyone call me in the last 2 years’.

Again, I’d call each day, make a note of the time and day and, more importantly, who you spoke, to. That’s the first thing I’d start with. If they don’t introduce themself, I’d, nicely, say “hi, and what was your name again?”, and write it down. Then when the conversation is over, jot down some notes.

In fact, tomorrow, when you call and get a bunch more ‘I dunno’ answers, just escalate it. Ask to speak to a supervisor and get it cleared up.

Furthermore, the very second it’s cleared up, the moment someone say ‘I don’t know what that was about, you’re balance is at zero’ or ‘must have been some kind of mistake’ or whatever, you’re response, IMO, needs to be 'Could you please send me a statement or letter stating that I have no balance and that everything is paid off. They’ll be totally understanding, especially if you add on ‘I don’t know what that was all about, but if it comes back if it comes back to haunt me in a year, I’ll have something to show that I’m in good standing’. I had to do that with a medical group that put me in collections by accident.

Also, you’re right, they won’t have anything signed, but as someone else said, you can change your policy over the phone, so they don’t need a signature to begin with. If you still have online access you might be able to look back and see if it ever changed. Same if you kept the old policies.

I might also mention (if they say it) that they say at the beginning of the conversation that they record all the phone calls and suggest that they go find that one.

You could also poke around online and see if you can find other reports of similar happenings.
The key here is to be super nice. If you get nasty and start yelling, they’ll get defensive. At least pretend like you’re going to pay if they can prove it. Statements like ‘I’m positive I never made any changes since I got the policy X years ago, if I had I would have paid for them’ or “If I’ve owed $200 for the last two years, why haven’t I ever received a bill or statement or phone call about it? Not even a letter threatening to terminate my policy, I would have dealt with it then.” will go a lot farther than "This is a bunch of bullshit, I’m going to report all of you’. You can report them, you can ask the commissioner of insurance for Wisconsin for help, just don’t tell them you’re going to do it.

TLDR, nicely bug them every day, eventually they’ll probably give up or figure out their mistake, then nicely ask/demand a statement saying you’re balance is at zero.

9

I’ve been in the insurance industry for nearly 20 years, in claims as well as an agent, and sorted out tons of hiccups. Something sounds strange here. It’s difficult for me to believe this could be a “billing error” which went unnoticed for several years unless we’re dealing with a minor carrier without a modern billing system. However, without seeing a series of actual documents, things like this are difficult to troubleshoot. Do you still have your renewal dec pages issued from 2012 to 2015? If so, examine the coverage limit(s) they claim you increased and see if they changed over that span of time. Forget about the premiums…just look at the limits. Other questions:

It sounds like your typical renewal was in July but they’re saying you called them on July 13, 2013. Hence, you probably got a renewal dec a few weeks or a month before the renewal date. Do you normally write a check and mail it as soon as you get the notice, wait until it’s due and then pay over the phone, or what? Did you pay for the next year on the date they say you called? This would tell me whether one dec or two decs should exist for 2013 (one, a renewal mailed to you and then, perhaps, a second from this change they say you made). But, then, if that happened, one would expect you could trace a change in coverage limits across the dec pages from 2012 to 2015.

Really, a message board is not the place to sort something like this out unless you’re willing to post the documents somewhere they can be examined because follow-up questions will be different depending on your answers to previous questions. If you want, block out identifying info, policy numbers, VIN, etc and post them…I would not need to see any identifying info to find discrepancies in the coverage.

10

It’s GMAC, so no.

For some weird reason I had a copy of my 2010 docs in my file but not anything before that and nothing after with the exception of last year (2015).

Coverages are identical! Had there been an addition in 2013 it would have been on the 2015 paperwork.

I think Iggy might be right. Somebody maybe typed in the wrong thing for somebody else. Over a decade ago we got a notice from out bank that they hadn’t received 2 months of mortgage payments. On top of always sending in extra principal we also were always were at least 3 months ahead (when we sent a payment in August it was Decembers coupon, etc.). Turned out someone at the bank credited the payments to somebody elses account.

It still makes no sense that if GMAC thinks I owed $200 it would take them 3 years to tell me.

11

When the fly-by-night scumbags who held my mortgage (CHASE) made some aggravating errors with my account, I set aside an hour each day to call them. I was aggressively polite, eventually getting an extension number so I could directly reach the supervisor working my case.

Each time I called, I patiently went through the case step-by-step, reading everything from my prepared notes. This went on for weeks, yet I never broke down and never backed off from my recitation of facts.

In the end all was resolved, I got an apology and two $25 checks “for my time”. Why two checks? I was offered $25 and they couldn’t even do that right.

12

So, here’s what I’d do. I’d call today, soon as they open. Whatever phone troll answers, ask for a supervisor, don’t give them any more info then you have to. Name, account number, etc, but when they ask why, I would just say ‘there was a problem with account and person yesterday told me I needed to speak to a supervisor, but I had to leave the house and she told me to call back when I had time and ask for one’. Maybe it’ll work, maybe it won’t. Either way, that’s what I’d try.

Anyways. I’d get right into asking again why you have this $200 balance. Hopefully they tell you it’s from raising your coverage. If they give you a different reason you might be in trouble…or you might not be since then you can say 'well yesterday you said one thing and today you’re saying this, if you don’t even know what it’s for, I’m not going to pay it"
So, anyways, I’d ask them to tell you what your coverage was before the “increase”, or even just have them take a look at for themselves and compare it before and after that date.

Your typical Tier 1 probably can’t do anything but note your account, but if you talk to a supervisor or, even better, and billing specialist, that might be enough proof for them to say ‘yup, you’re right, your rates certainly didn’t change, lets just get this account back to zero’.

Then, again, make sure you get something that says you have no balance with them.

13

This is a mistake, not evil doing. Insurance companies are very tightly regulated, and they go out of business if they are in the habit of intentionally cheating customers by making up fake charges.

Keep that in mind when you call them, it may help you maintain your composure.

Other than that, I agree with what has been said. Probably, someone else intended to increase coverage and the phone rep wrote down the wrong policy. They found it now because they are cleaning up your cancelled account. Be persistent but polite. Ask for something in writing documenting that you don’t owe anything, once they reach that conclusion.

14

This thread has revealed the thing I hate most on this planet. Billing departments, whether insurance, hospital, or any other organization. They’re liars and thieves. You cannot do a thing about them either, They send you bills for stuff you never did. They lie about how much something was going to cost, then 9 months later send a bill saying you didn’t pay the full amount. Doesn’t matter if you have a receipt, they’ll just say the insurance company didn’t pay everything. If you refuse to pay they threaten to ruin your credit. You all can ignore this post, I just needed to vent.

15

I think this is better suited to IMHO.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

16

Hey, pk, You got that $300 I lent you? Go ahead and paypal that back to me, okay?

17

This is baloney. Any insurance company worth its salt has an automated system that rates your policy. If the policy was changed in 2013 or whenever, the “new” coverage amount would have been on your policy and automatically charged for on the next renewal, and you would have paid it with or without knowing it. It just would have been there.

Are they saying the changes were requested and never applied? As long as there was no pertinent claim made that the supposed new coverage covered that the original coverage didn’t, I don’t understand why they’re wasting time on this. Talk to a manager.

You shouldn’t have to prove anything. They need to prove it to you. If they can’t and don’t back off, send a letter to the Wisconsin Dept of Insurance and Wisconsin Dept of Ag, Trade and Consumer Protection. That’ll get 'em moving.

(In the insurance business for 15 years longer than dreamregent.)

18

I’d contact the state insurance bureau and ask what to do. Here the Texas Dept. of Insurance has a page devoted to complaints and what to do or not do.

19

Yeah, definitely not. I’ve written policies for GMAC and I know what the online interface to their system looks like.

Be sure to point this out to them. If the coverage is the same on the 2010 & 2015 dec pages, they should have a record of both an “increase” in coverage and a “decrease” in coverage for those 2 dec pages to be the same.

Yeah, this definitely makes no sense. GMAC is generally sold through local independent agents. You mentioned the inception of the policy occurred in 1995 so I assume you initially purchased it from a local agent at that time. Customers often forget about the local agent, particularly when a number of years go by, but that’s another avenue you could try for assistance. Is that agent still in business? Is there a local agent’s name listed on your 2015 dec page?

20

While I still suggest asking for a supervisor as soon as you’re talking to a human, I’d use the older policy and see if you can set them up with a bit of a gotcha.

I’d first start out by asking, again, what this $200 is for. Hopefully, they’ll say “I don’t know, it doesn’t say” and you can just come back with “they didn’t seem to know the last time I called and still no one knows, do you think you can just find a way to remove it from the account? If no one can even tell me why I owe it, I can’t pay it, that doesn’t make sense”

However, they’ll probably bring up the policy change. That’s where I’d say 'oooohhh, they mentioned something about that the last time I called, but I’ve never changed my coverage. Can you tell me what it was before it was changed?" That’s when you can say 'well, I have this old policy here and it’s exactly the same as the current one, so something still isn’t right since that would mean it was changed and changed back*, so someone changed it twice without my knowledge…does it say who changed it?"…and see where that takes you.
*Upthread people were mentioning that it was probably a mistake, that the change was probably meant for another policy, but I couldn’t reconcile that in my head. How do you change the limits on one person’s policy and then bill a different person (And years later). The only way that would work is if the underwriting and billing system were totally and completely separate. Like, if I called in spoke to a policy agent, made an adjustment, then they would, internally, call someone in billing and have my bill adjusted.
But as I wrote that part above, about the policy being changed twice, my WAG is that your policy was changed, someone did adjust your coverage by accident, then the mistake was caught and it was adjusted back to what it should have been. It was probably fixed fast enough that a new policy booklet and bill wasn’t mailed out to you but someone in accounting probably just never got around to cleaning up the account. There was probably a $200 bill generated for the adjustment (meant for someone else) that had to be taken back out by hand and for any number or reasons…wasn’t. Hell, there might even be a credit in there to go along with it and it just needs to be applied.

Having said/thought all that, I’ll bet if they can pin down the date that the $200 bill was generated, sometime in the hours/days/weeks preceding it, your policy did, in fact, change and then quickly change back. If they can find that, they shouldn’t have any problem wiping it out. But, I’d still say 'thanks again for helping me, could you just make sure to note all this in the account and send me something stating that I have a zero balance, ya know, just in case it comes back to haunt me".