Any major reverberations from the foreclosure forgeries?

So several banks have announced freezes on foreclosures because of evidence of fraud in how the paperwork was handled.

What effect do you think this whole thing will have on the economy, the banks, and the real estate market in general? I’ve seen some argue that this attacks the very foundation of the entire market, as it is an attack on the trust on which purchases are made, and that this is like the pulling out of a keystone.

I, however, can’t help thinking that, because of a mixture of factors, this will blow over and be forgotten a lot sooner than perhaps it should (even if it does cause a LOT of pain across the country), and that nothing will happen to anyone or anything as a result. Thoughts?

Americans are so apathetic about anything done in the name of business that I don’t see any long term effects. No matter how big the scandal or how great the corruption most people will just shrug their shoulders and ignore it, or outright defend it using rhetoric about the free market, competition and capitalism.

Is it really fair to call it fraud when it just looks like lax paperwork? In other words, is there evidence that some of the people who were foreclosed on by robosigners should not have been foreclosed on?

Don’t get me wrong, it certainly leaves the possibility open to fraud when you don’t follow regulations: that’s why they’re in place. But of the millions of foreclosures taking place, you’d think they’d find at least one firm example of one that had proceeded where it shouldn’t have.

ETA: one example of fraud that involves robosigning. I’m sure there have been foreclosure fraud examples in other places (for instance, the infamous HOA-foreclosure case in Texas.)

If it was deliberatem then it is fraud. If it was a mistake, then we have to ask how often ad how widespread it was. If it happened only once, it’s a mistake. If it happened a lot, then it is deliberate and we’re back to fraud. If it was “handled” by “robosigners” and they messed up, the company should be held liable and subject to lawsuits, as a bare minimum.

I don’t think there will be any major criminal implications. There are likely large fines in the works for the companies that did this, but I don’t think anyone is going to go to jail. I don’t think anyone should. Yes, they committed technical fraud, but it doesn’t appear as though the documents contained fraudulent information. The problem was just that the person supposedly verifying the information, didn’t.

I think the broader problem is that is has essentially halted foreclosures. Some may think that is a good thing, but it really isn’t. A person living for free in a home because of this is one less apartment/house being rented. It also is delaying and extending the housing crisis. The best thing for the country is to find bottom and get some stability back.

Ask Jason Grodensky who paid cash but was foreclosed on by BOA 7 months later. Businessweek - Bloomberg

ETA: Lax paperwork my ass.

People just don’t give a shit anymore. We’ve bent over so far that we can’t even feel it when they shove it in any deeper.

Just to underline my point about the relationship between “lax paperwork” and my derriere:

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/money/real-estate/ex-employee-says-foreclosure-firm-forged-signatures-962103.html

Here’s the deposition: (PDF) Probate Attorney, Trust & Estate Law, Code Enforcement - WeidnerLaw

We have a thing in our business that should cover this. If it isn’t the law, maybe it should be. It’s the concept of “Stamp Warranty”. If you inspect something and stamp it (or sign it), you are officially stating for the record that you did in fact perform all the required verifications and inspections. You are officially stating for the record that whatever you inspected and verified met the requirements - contractually, technically, whatever you were doing. If it is found later to be defective, and that you falsely stamped/signed/accepted it, that is a Stamp Waranty issue and yes it is officially cosidered a type of fraud. You can go to a federal prison in the worst cases.

So if someone in one of those companies said they did a review and signed off, and they didn’t actually do it, that is fraud and they might be facing prison. Whether the document itself contained deliberately fraudulent info becomes a second and separate issue.

There is also another very ugly fallout - every document this person ever signed off on, is now suspect.

The consequences for the economy and property rights are potentially huge. Here’s a pretty good summary.

Let me try and explain.

State law will vary, but generally speaking, any real estate loan will consist of two things: the note, which is proof of the debt, and the mortgage, which is the lien on the property. The note and the mortgage are pretty much worthless alone; if you only hold the note, but you don’t have the mortgage, you basically only have an unsecured loan. The mortgage gets recorded in the county where the property is located. The note is not recorded, but it can be endorsed over and physically delivered to another party (similar to a personal check). This system has essentially been in place for decades, even centuries (there is property related terminology that has roots in England’s feudal days).

Nowadays, mortgage originators will generally not hold onto the real estate loans they originate. Often the individual loans will get sold and pooled into a trust to create some kind of security, generically known as a mortgage backed security (MBS). The basic process involves signing the note over to the party administering the trust, delivering physical possession of the note to the trustee, and going to the county title records office and paying the fee to have the mortgage reassigned. This has to be done every time an individual loan is sold. It may seem archaic in a computerized world, but the system in place provides clear notice of who owns what, whether property is encumbered, and maintains the chain of title.

There are a couple of explanations why things have become so screwed up. One is that many of the mortgage originators during the real estate frenzy were fly-by-night operations, most of whom are out of business today. Since they weren’t keeping the loans, and since their processes weren’t being scrutinized by those buying their loans, they probably made lots of loans with bad and/or incomplete paperwork. The other reason is that, because there was such a frenzy to buy and sell these loans, and because the traditional process was slow and expensive (having to pay the county title record office a fee to update the record every time a loan was sold), the industry contrived different methods of getting around that process. An example of that is MERS, which was an electronic registry intended to get around the recordation process. The result was notes not getting conveyed when they should have and mortgage records not being updated. When homeowners started challenging foreclosures in court based on lack of standing, courts started ruling in their favor. Perhaps because they knew that they hadn’t dotted all their i’s and crossed all their t’s, the big banks that handle the servicing of most of these loans (and the law firms they’ve retained) have engaged in shenanigans to try to push as many foreclosures through the courts as they could before anyone noticed.

But now everyone has noticed. And a good chunk of real estate loan purchases may turn out to be invalid, meaning the MBS trustees don’t have standing to foreclose (which will screw those who invested in the MBS). Even worse, it calls into question the legitimate ownership of scores of mortgage notes, and it may be nearly impossible to determine if an individual property is truly unencumbered by liens (see this story of a Florida man who purchased a home outright but was still foreclosed on, even though he didn’t have a mortgage).

What will be the result? This is going to make the mortgage mess drag out even longer. As I see it, the banks not only have huge paper profits that they’re desperately trying to realize (even if they have to commit fraud upon the courts to do so), but they also have potential liability to the MBS investors for screwing everything up. Now that they’re being stopped, they may finally realize that they’re going to have write off quite a bit of their paper profit. Unfortunately, because of the paperwork mess, they may not be able to agree to modifications with individual borrowers because they may not be able to find the notes, or they may lack standing because they’re not listed in the title records. Any attempt to get their cronies in Congress to pass legislation to help them (like the bill Obama vetoed that would have required courts to recognize out-of-state notarizations) will run into a huge legal roadblock from the states, as real property law and the evidentiary requirements surrounding it is overwhelmingly a state matter.

Lying to the courts is not a mere technicality.

Would the fact that the bill was federal take precedence over state regulations?

Any legislation will certainly try to take precedence, probably by citing some half-assed Commerce Clause justification. But the states will definitely fight it out. They’re not going to let Congress trample over well-established bodies of state law just to cover for the banksters.

I just wanted to thank you MOIDALIZE for your very informative post!

There have been cases of foreclosures rejected because the bank could not prove ownership. They did not have the deed and the mortgage was chopped up and sold in packages across the globe. So banks cheat. What’s new.

After the many ways that the “banksters” have screwed up, gotten bailed out, and screwed up again, I wouldn’t count on the states to help them do it again, and screw people out of their homes, to cover their foul ups and incompetence again. I think it’s time the laws were examined and tightened. Likewise, there should be audits and investigations to find out just what is going on, and if any laws were violated, charges should be filed.

These are not just technicalities or oopsies.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Robosigners-Mortgage-apf-382327091.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=main&asset=&ccode=

Oh yeah. Lax paperwork. Right. :rolleyes:

So, if I had a house purchased during this time frame, how could I be sure that by paying the mortgage each month that the amount of the loan was actually being reduced and that if I were able to pay it off all at once, that I would actually then own the property? Because while I personally rent, I’d have to think at this point anyone who did buy during that period would have to be awfully nervous that everything would be recorded correctly.

This is going to go on for months. Lots of investors are on the hook for major losses here and may not own what they think they own. It’s just possible Uncle Sam won’t be there to bail them out at 100 cents on the dollar again too. Whatever happens it’ll involve everybody suing everybody else. Because some actual powerful people stand to lose money here we may even see them press for criminal charges, securities violations etc. against the muppets running the banks and securities firms. It’s a radical concept I know but we may see some of these guys facing consequences for their actions.