Any MP3 experts out there? Opinions needed.

Question:
My husband “gave” me (read, I get to pick one out) an MP3 player for my birthday. As I’m reading through volumes of stuff on the net, I find myself confused about players in general.

It seems to me that for the $200-$250 I was planning to spend, I can only get a model that will store about 2 hours of recorded music. (MP3 Diamond Rio 500 is what I was researching) Is this really the limitation for that price range? Is this like the base model Casion digital camera I had to have when they came out, which totally sucks, just a few very short years later?

I have a CD writer at home, so would it make more (economic) sense to just make up a few CDW disks of music that I want from MP3’s I have? (Ripped from my own CD collection, thank you very much) Can’t I just transfer their format over to one readable by my own home CD player and enjoy them that way? My husband does this with songs he records at home, so I imagine I could do the same.

Does anyone know how many songs you can fit (estimate- average 5 minute songs) on a regular old CD?

It seems to me that MP3 players are a groovy thing, but If you have the proper software (which I have) and a CD burner, they’re a waste of money. Better to wait until they have 12 hour music saving capabilities or something amazing like that.

For what it’s worth, I’m not a freak about skipping, intense sound quality, or anything like that. I just want something I could put lots of music on.

Zette

You’re only going to get about 2 CDs worth of tunes on your typical 64 MB MP3 player, which’ll run you $200+ or so. You can get more by converting them to mono or sampling at a lower rate, but to do this to existing files is time-consuming and IMHO, the loss of sound quality isn’t worth the trade off.

My recommendations:
-Buy a MP3 reading CD player (they sell em at import shops like http://www.liksang.com) and I believe there are some on the US market now. That way you can just burn the MP3s to CD and get more on a single CD as well as the ability to easily swap. I do not think they support CDRW though.
-Buy a Minidisc recorder. They run $200 for a decent one, you can send MP3 files from your PC directly to em (10-15 minutes for an albums worth), easily swap out discs (and at $1 a pop now they’re quite affordable), also copy CDs/Tapes/records to em, and they also have a mic jack for recording your favorite street performers or your husband as he talks in his sleep.

Until the price for memory drops, I really don’t consider an MP3 player a viable option.

Addendum- I own a minidisc recorder and love it. I notice no sound loss converting from MP3 to ATRAC (minidisc compression format), small & lightweight, very easy to use, sturdy (I’ve dropped mine several times), virtually skip-free, media is cheap, and it still has the geek head-turning factor of an MP3 player.

I convert my MP3s to CD format and burn them to a CD. I don’t notice any loss of quality. I will admit that I don’t have the best ears in the world. Maybe an expert would say there was a quality difference but it isn’t noticeable to me.

You can fit as many songs as the length of the CD. So if you have an eighty minute CD you can fit 16 five minutes songs on it. I have noticed that leaving a few minutes blank on the CD makes it easier for my program to process.

The program was about $50. I am sorry that I can’t remember the name but there was a demo on Download.com. This is a very cost effective way to record MP3 music to listen on a regular CD player. I won’t buy an MP3 player until the get better and cheaper.

FYI- if you simply want to go with a regular, run-of-the-mill CD playing walkman, you can convert .MP3s to .WAVs (which you then burn as Audio CD tracks) using Winamp, which is shareware. Just change the Output PlugIn from OutWav.DLL to OutDisk.DLL, set the destination folder for Wav files, and you’re set. Sound quality depends on how the MP3 file was encoded (typically dealing with bitrate) but loss is miniimal unless you’re an audiophile.

First, thanks a lot for your answers- they were VERY helpful! I have a few quick questions, if you guys don’t mind-

I’m a little confused about this, as I’ve never heard of a CD being measured in minutes. I was thinking a CD holds 680meg of data, and a song might take up 10 meg in .wav form (which will play on my regular CD player), thereby giving me about 60 songs to a disk. I see I’m probably way off here- any idea where I’m off? Are wav formats THAT space consuming?

I’m now leaning toward the “burn my own CDs” idea, since I’ve already invested in a burner. I think I’ll wait a year or two to see if the prices on the ones with 6 gig capacity come way down in price.

Thanks in advance for your help guys!

Zette

The CDs that I buy are Imation Recordable CDs. You can record either 700MB of data or 80 minutes of music to the CD. I hit the 80 minutes of music way before I get to the 700MB.

I am not an expert so I am not sure if there is another way to do it. I just know how I do it. The program that I use is really easy and prints a nice CD label. When I get home tomorrow I will find the name and let you know where to download the demo. I think you like it.

Thanks Zumba! I’m also looking at one of these:
http://www.easybuy2000.com/store/products/mp3/mp3_discman.html

It reads MP3s on regular CDs- like a discman, except you write MP3s right on the CD instead of transfering the format.
Sounds like more what’s up my alley, perhaps?

Zette

That MP3 CD player is similar to what I was talking about from Liksang.com. .WAV format typically takes up more than 10 MB per song (once again it is dependant on the quality of the recording). Most CDRs are 650 MB/74 minute, but 700 MB/80 minute CDRs are becoming more popular.

If you’re going to burn your own audio CDs, be prepared to make a lot of coasters. That’s from my personal experience.

That sounds really neat Zette! I might have to get one of those.

It is different then what I do though. I can play the CDs that I make in any normal CD player.

Here is a link to the software I use for anyone else who is interested.

http://www.zy2000.com/

I recently purchased a CD-RW drive and believe that burning CD’s is the way to go. The reason that a .WAV file only uses, say, 10 MB of space, but seems to use much more on the CD-R or CD-RW is because you’re not copying a .WAV file onto the CD, you’re putting it into .WAV format, so that it can be transfered to CD-Audio format, which is ALWAYS measured in time, not MB.

The thing to remember with CD burners is that a CD-RW disc can’t be made into an audio CD, only a CD-R can. (Of course, if you only have a CD-R drive, nothing to worry about.)

[un-related topic]
Hmm…my typing is really bad tonight, EVERY time I have hit the comma key I have added an m on the end. EVERY time. Damn.
[\un-related topic]

CD quality .wav (PCM) files use about 9-10 MB/minute of music. Which is why you get (for regular CD-R) 680MB or 70 minutes of music. Mp3 files, due to the mpeg compression scheme, use approximately 1 MB/minute (at 128 kb/sec, the average sampling rate). The Nullsoft Disk Write Plug-In, and I think most of the others as well, take the .mp3 file and decode it into an uncompressed (PCM) .wav file, running 35-40 megs for an average 3.5 to 4 minute song.

To play the CDs in a standard stereo CD player, it either requires the uncompressed .wav files to write to the CD, or decodes it on its own before writing it to the CD-R. Personally, I use the updated Adaptec EZ CD Creator, since it came bundled with the CD-R. It will take a sound file in almost any format decode it, then burn it to the CD. It doesn’t seem to matter what sampling rate the .mp3 file used, 128, 192 or 256, they all seem to work out to the same size/time on the burned CD since the files are decoded into an uncompressed .wav first.

To add a few points:

CDRs are either 650 MB (or 74 minutes) or 700 (or 80 minutes) long.
CDRW are only 650/74 (AFAIK).

You can create an Audio CD on either CDR or CDRW, but CDRW media is not playable on many older CD players, discmen, etc.

When you convert audio from a CD to MP3 there is some quality loss, nearly none to quite a bit depending on who you ask and what settings you use to encode MP3s. When you convert back to .wav or burn to a CD in CD audio format the quality is identical to the MP3 file. The MP3 to .wav conversion can be done using Winamp’s .wav writer plug-in or most popular CD burning software (Nero is my favorite). Audio CD or .wav to MP3 conversion can be done with programs such as Audiocatalyst, Audiograbber, MusicMatch Jukebox or LAME. LAME is supposed to be better quality, while Audiocatalyst is the fastest.

MP3 CD players are a viable option. RCA and Philips make them, along with other smaller companies. This allows you to put 650 or 700 MB of MP3s on one CDR or CDRW (meaning up to 140 5 MB MP3s - about 11.5 hours of music). Optionally you can still play audio CDs, CDRs, and CDRWs.

Another option is the Creative Labs Nomad Jukebox (other similar products available from smaller companies too). It has a 6 GB internal hard drive allowing for about 100 hours of music. No more switching CDs.

Nomad: 6GB capacity, 4 hour battery life, Large LCD and ID3 tag support (to allow you to read the song and artist name), MSRP $430, five minutes of shock protection, CD player size.

Philips Expanium: MP3 CD player, 700 MB capacity, 10 hour battery life, small LCD and NO ID3 tag support, MSRP $200, 100 second of shock protection.

RCA’s MP3 player: MP3 CD player, 700 MB capacity, MSRP $250, difficult to find more information on the web.

Standard MP3 player: 32-128 MB capacity, about 10 hours battery life, ID3 tag support (for most of them), MSRP $80-300. No shock protection needed since they have no moving parts. Size comparable to most cell phones. Expansion cards available for about $100 for 64 MB.

Keep in mind that I’m not promoting any of these products, they’re just the ones I thought of first, and I’m sure there are better ones available for less money.

Thanks SO much for all the info! I would LOVE to have a Nomad 6gig MP3 player, but I’ll wait a year or two until they’re giving them away. I believe I’ll go with one of these:

Maybe I’ll try burning a CD or two today and see how I make out. I should be able to play them on my computer so I’ll know if they came out OK. I have a registered copy of Music Match (I think that’s it) and I should be able to rip a few CDs quick like and test it all out. Thanks a lot, every one. You guys are the best. If anyone else wants to weight in, please feel free. I probably won’t be ordering one until Monday. :slight_smile:
Zette

If I can get them, I have two of them on my Xmas list to give to others. 100 hours of music! Wooohooo!

The consensus here seems to be to scrap the MP3 player altogether in favor of the CDRW format portable player.

Having recently purchased an MP3 portable player myself, I strongly disagree with this approach.

Until recently, I pretty much went the CD route with everything. I have the multi-disk home player, car CD player, and the portable CD player for biking and whatnot. I’ve spent a small fortune on CD’s.

With the advent of the MP3 and the various methods of transferring music over the net, and the ease of ripping CD’s I already own into the computer, I’ve been slowly changing the way I listen to music.

At first I kept the two kind of separate, I listened to CD’s through the main stereo and car, and only listened to MP3’s when sitting at the computer through headphones or the speakers I have for the comp.

I tried to burn CD’s with music I like from the comp and transfer them around from the home system, car, portable, etc… This got to be a major pain. It takes time to burn the things, it doesn’t always work out as planned (Want some coaster’s? Please!!), and the burn order only seems good for about a week or two.

Then I started expanding the reach of the MP3. I hooked up a cheezy, yet effective, audio line from the comp to the main home stereo, and soon upgraded that to the highest I could. It was too damn easy to use. I bought some programs that sort and order songs on the comp, bought a couple of players that allow me to change and enhance MP3’s sound on the comp and home system. I really liked it.

I still tried to burn CD’s for the car and the portable, but it was tedious and boring. So, one rainy afternoon, I said, ‘Screw this.”. I went out and purchased an MP3 player. I haven’t looked back since.

By sheer luck, I ended up with an RCA Lyra player with a 64 meg card. I say luck because I had no idea what I should get. It turns out I bought a player that a fully upgradeable. It will allow new software to be added down the road, and the card system means I’m not stuck with one level of memory.

That was the last time I burned a CD. The ease of transferring songs to the player is incredible. What once took about a half hour of converting, sorting, and burning songs, now takes about 5-10 minutes all told.

The card is fast. On a typical day, I insert the card in the reader, erase what’s on it, about a minute, and pick out songs I feel like for the car or bike ride. I’ll add about fifteen or so normal length songs. I click the songs, then click start, and about five minutes later I’m ready to roll.

It’s really that fast and easy. There’s no skipping, the player is lighter than any portable I’ve ever used, and outside of data, I don’t need or have a shit-load of unmarked CD’s laying around.

The downside to date? The tape converter for the car stinks. The sound is not all that great.

So, don’t dismiss the MP3 player altogether and wait for it to get better. From what I’ve seen and experienced, it’s pretty damn good where it is now.

My .02+ cents.

Ooops. Remind me to read all the posts before I add my .02 cents.

Add my experience to the others who are promoting the MP3 player approach.

I totally agree with the MP3 player, but ease of use isn’t the only issue. My main point is yeah, I could get one of those awesome Nomads or some such, but I can’t afford it right now, and what I CAN afford will only give me 2 hours of playing time (which I don’t think is enough).

I appreciate the weigh in, though. I’ve learned a TON from this thread about MP3 players- I even looked into the Iomega Hip Click, but the price is too high for those, too right now. Maybe I should just get a damned 8 track player!
:slight_smile:
Zette

Well, at least then you can listen to “Disco Duck” again…

Oh crap. I just checked - it’s on Napster. God is dead.

At a 128 bit samping rate, converted to WAV, I can fit about 16 or 17 on a disc.