I’d be very interested, if we could actually enforce the ground rules and not have an endless series of Kable’s oh-so-clever “Do you actually believe this is true?” questions. Man, does that get tiresome quick.
I’m sorry that liberal Christians here feel so embarrassed, either way, when asked to say if they think a given Bible story is true or not.
Seems like it’s a good question in order to get at the meaning the author is trying to convey. If it’s true, the author was meaning to inform others, if a story is false it seems the author is attempting to deceive in some way.
There are numerous biblical passages in which the intention was very clearly to deceive the audience. The entire book of Deuteronomy, for example, is a fraudulent text written up with the specific purpose of giving legitimacy to a particular king and to a particular cult. (Well, this is putting it a little too starkly–I am not sure, given their attitudes toward historical texts (see my previous post about historical fiction) that they cared whether people really believed it. They may have cared more simply about whether people would affirm it. But of course that’s hardly better. It’s still a kind of fraud.)
I am pretty sure the gospel of John contains a pretty big lie. It goes to great lengths to affirm “no seriously, there’s a guy here who really saw all this stuff and we’re writing down exactly what he tells us he saw” but… no, there’s no way it happened the way he said. At the very least, that passage is itself a lie, even if the rest of the book began as legitimate historical fiction.
There is no need for embarrassment about any of this. We should be thinking about who wrote the texts, what their motives were, and what lies they would have been tempted to tell. This is important for understanding the significance of the text.
You know, Kable, you’ve answered me in another thread that your method of aggressive and hostile questioning has never convinced anyone online of any of your arguments. Tell me, I forget, what’s the term for someone who applies the same method repeatedly, but is still surprised when the results don’t change?
I would enjoy participating provided the conversation can be kept civil. If desired, I can try to answer the question “How can you crazy Christians take this seriously,” provided the questioner wants to know rather than just to mock. I’m ok with mocking–but under those conditions it’s not worth trying to explain.
When we study the Bible we ask a series of questions that help the discussion move along. Examples:
What does the text tell us about the author and the author’s purpose?
What does the text tell us about the audience and what they would understand?
What does the text tell us about God?
What does the text tell us about people?
How can we understand this text today in our culture?
How should we respond to the text?
Here at SDMB these might need to be modified…so rather than “What does this tell us about God” we might ask “What does this tell us about God as portrayed in the Judeo-Christian scriptures” or “How would someone who considers the Bible ‘true’ respond to this text.”
I don’t think that opening the door to those type of questions would be productive. As was outlined in the OP, questions and answers of that nature should be in GD.
I would much rather concentrate on the questions of that did the people at the time believe this to mean over a debate of current theology.
This is a generous offer, but this is not where these threads are supposed to be going. We’re not interesting in your beliefs, to put it bluntly - or in anybody else’s, for that matter. We’re interested in what message is being conveyed in the Bible, and not how any particular interpretation affects anyone emotionally, spiritually, or morally. The current thread on 2 Kings 2:23-24 *is *headed in that direction (although in that thread there are also attempts in that thread to simply the discuss text, context, and subtext of that passage), so perhaps you can shine your light there. I’m afraid your efforts will be in vain, though.
If you’ll pardon the self reference, I’d love to read what any of those interested in discussing the Bible write in this thread. It has no “Bible is true” or “Bible is false” agenda but is seeking views on a specific tale.
If desired, I can try to answer the question “How can you crazy Christians take this seriously,” provided the questioner wants to know rather than just to mock. I’m ok with mocking–but under those conditions it’s not worth trying to explain.